Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Direct and re-direct examination by Captain Black. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Was with Fielden on the speakers' wagon when the police approached, climbed down from the wagon with him. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.M 119), the Alarm (vol.M 117), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.M 97), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.M 113), Greif's Hall (vol.M 114), Zepf's Hall (vol.M 112), 1886 May 4 meeting of the American Group at the Arbeiter-Zeitung office (vol.M 100), learned about the Haymarket meeting in an English-language newspaper (vol.M 118), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.M 104), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.M 104), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.M 105), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.M 112), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for conspiracy (vol.M 94), International Rifles (vol.M 96), Parsons, Albert (vol.M 96), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.M 108), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.M 110).
Testimony of William Snyder, 1886 Aug. 5.
Volume M, 94-119, 26 p.
Chairman of the International Working People's Association.
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[Image, Volume M, Page 94]
Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1
Direct and re-direct examination by Captain Black. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al.
Was with Fielden on the speakers' wagon when the police approached, climbed down from the wagon with him. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.M 119), the Alarm (vol.M 117), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.M 97), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.M 113), Greif's Hall (vol.M 114), Zepf's Hall (vol.M 112), 1886 May 4 meeting of the American Group at the Arbeiter-Zeitung office (vol.M 100), learned about the Haymarket meeting in an English-language newspaper (vol.M 118), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.M 104), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.M 104), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.M 105), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.M 112), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for conspiracy (vol.M 94), International Rifles (vol.M 96), Parsons, Albert (vol.M 96), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.M 108), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.M 110).
a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. Black, and testified as follows:
Q Your name is William Snyder?
A That is my name.
Q Where were you born?
A The State of New York.
Q What is your age?
Q How long have you lived in Cook Country?
A Twenty-two years.
Q In Chicago during the whole of that time?
A Nearly all that time. I am out of the city sometimes two months, sometimes three months, but I made it my home, it has been my home for twenty-two years and over.
Q Where have you been since the 8th day of May this year?
A I have been in Jail.
Q In Jail in Cook County?
A In Jail in Cook County.
Q You are under indictment as you understand for conspiracy in connection with the Haymarket riot?
Q Were you ever under arrest before?
A I never was in my life. I never had a policeman lay his hand on me during the thirty-seven years of my life.
Q When were you arrested?
A I was arrested on the 8th day of May, on Saturday night at 8 o'clock.
Q By whom?
A They were detectives, and I can't really say what their names were.
Q Did they have any warrant for your arrest?
A They had no warrant whatever for my arrest.
Q Where were you arrested?
A In my room, 22 West
Lake, room 21 on the fourth floor.
Q How long have you occupied that room or locality?
A I have occupied that locality between six and seven years.
Q You are a socialist?
A Yes, I am a socialist.
Q A member of the American Group of the International Workingmens Association?
A I am a member of the International Workingmens Association, the American Group.
Q How long have you been a member of that group?
A I have been a member of that group ever since it was organized.
Q Who of the defendants here present are you personally acquainted with?
A I am acquainted with Mr. Spies. I am acquainted with Mr. Parsons. I am acquainted with Mr. Fielden. I am acquainted with Mr. Fischer; and I am acquainted with Mr. Schwab, I am not really personally acquainted with Mr. Schwab, still I know Mr. Schwab quite well--that is, I know; and I am acquainted with Mr. Neebe.
Q Are you acquainted with either Lingg or Engel?
A That is Mr. Engel that sits on the end there.
Q Yes sir.
A I am slightly acquainted with Mr. Engel.
Q Any acquaintance with Lingg?
A That is Mr. Lingg there, is it (indicating)?
Q Yes, the second one.
A No, I am not acquainted with Mr. Lingg.
Q How long have you known Parsons and Fielden?
A I have known Parsons for six or seven years probably.
Q And Fielden how long?
A I have known Fielden for four of five years.
Q They were members of the same group with yourself,the Workingmens Association, the American Group?
A They were, yes sir.
Q Did you see them or either of them on Tuesday night? May 4th, 1886?
A I saw both of them.
Q Where did you see them that evening first?
A Tuesday night that was, May 4th.
Q That was May 4th?
A I didn't understand.
Q Where did you see them first that evening?
A I saw them first that evening at the Arbeiter Zeitung on Fifth Avenue.
Q The Arbeiter Zeitung building?
Q What occurred that occasioned your being at that place at that time?
A I saw an advertisement in the paper, or notice rather, in the paper, stating that there would be a meeting of the English Section at the Arbeiter Zeitung on Fifth Avenue that evening, and that is the reason why I went there.
Q Did you have anything to do with the insertion of that notice in the paper?
A I did not.
Q Did you know in advance of your reading the notice in
that paper that there was to be a meeting of that group that night at that place?
A That is before I read the notice?
Q Before you read it in the paper did you know anything about it?
A No sir, I did not.
Q The notice in the paper then was the first notice you had of the proposed meeting of the group that night?
A That is the first.
Q Now,what occurred at that meeting that night, the meeting of the American Group at 107 Fifth Avenue?
A We met there. We called the meeting. The meeting was called to order about half past eight o'clock I should judge, near that, and we waited there. Before this we had waited there for some time. I went up stairs, and there was quite a good many of the members there, and we waited for sometime for Mr. and Mrs. Parsons for to make their appearance, and finally they came, and when they got there I should judge it was probably about half past eight o'clock; and I made the remark to them, asked them why it was they had not put in their appearance before that.
Q Never mind what they said as to why they were not there earlier. They got there about half past eight?
A They got there about half past eight.
Q What else occurred there that evening that you recall?
A I was elected as Chairman. I was Chairman of the meeting
that evening. I asked the question what the meeting was called for,and the purposes for which we met there for, and the statement---
Mr. Black: That objection is not well taken. The prosecution has gone fully into that meeting in the Arbeiter Zeitung office.
Mr. Grinnell: We did not have a witness on the stand in regard to that meeting. It was proved there was a meeting called there.
Mr. Black: You proved there was a notice, etc.
Mr. Grinnell: We proved there was a notice.
Mr. Black: (Q) State generally what was the subject under consideration at that meeting, without stating what was said or done?
The Court: Was there any witness produced on the part of the State who was in the room at all?
Mr. Grinnell: Not a witness.
Mr. Ingham: If there was a witness in the room, he was not asked any question about the meeting--no evidence in regard to what was done--simply the fact that the meeting was called in the paper, the advertisement in the paper for the meeting.
Mr. Grinnell: The state introduced no proof further than that.
Mr. Black: In the opening statement that was made by Mr. Grinnell the meeting at the Arbeiter Zeitung office that night was referred to as one of the circumstances which he proposed to use in the chain of evidence as tending to show a general conspiracy, and that that meeting was really called in furtherance of the general plan, and the outbreak of that night on the Haymarket. They did put in the evidence of the calling of the meeting. I believe it is true they did not attempt to give evidence as to what occurred in that meeting.
The Court: You have already had one witness, and it is quicker to let this witness repeat what happened there than to look up the evidence and see what has been done about it.
Mr. Grinnell: I made the objection this morning, and the court allowed them to show that they met there for the purpose of organizing sewing girls. I objected to it, and Mr. Ingham and I concluded to withdraw the objection.
The Court: That is the way it was. It was about the telephone message, about getting somebody for that other meeting.
Mr. Black: The court permits you to state what was the general topic for consideration that evening?
A The general topic under consideration for that meeting
was to get money from the treasury to further the organization of the sewing girls of this city through Mrs. Parsons and Mrs. Holmes.
Q How long did the meeting last?
A The meeting lasted about half an hour.
Q Where did you then go?
A We went to the corner of Randolph Street and Desplaines.
Q To the Haymarket meeting?
A To the Haymarket meeting.
Q Who all went together to the Haymarket meeting?
Q In fact nearly all that was at that meeting, I should judge. We were scattered along the street. Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden.
Q Do you remember seeing Schwab at that meeting that night?
A I do not.
Q Can you give us the names of those that were in the same company with yourself to the Haymarket?
Q Who were they?
A Mr. Parsons, Mr. Fielden and Brown, and another, I think.
Q How did you go--did you walk or ride?
A We walked.
Q When you reached the Haymarket meeting was any one addressing the audience?
A There was.
A Mr. Spies.
Q How long did he address the meeting after your arrival?
A A very short time. He stopped speaking nearly as soon as we got there, because he had been speaking all the time, I suppose.
Q That is Mr. Spies--you say he had been speaking a long time?
A No sir.
Q Where did your party go after reaching the scene?
A Went on the wagon.
Q Did you get on the wagon personally?
A I did.
Q How long did you personally remain on the wagon?
A I remained on the wagon all the while Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden was speaking with the exception of the time I got down and went to the wagon which was to the north.
Q Who was in the wagon to the north, if you remember?
A Mr. Parsons and Mrs. Holmes and Mrs. Parsons.
Q Mr. Snyder, when you went to the wagon, was it before or after Parsons had spoken?
A It was after Parsons had spoken.
Q Parsons went to that wagon then after concluding his remarks?
A He did, yes sir.
Q How long before the explosion of the bomb was it that you returned from the wagon at the north and resumed your place upon the speaker's wagon?
A I remained at that wagon that Mr. Parsons was on, the wagon north, I should judge about five minutes before I returned to the wagon to
Q How long were you on the speaker's wagon after you returned, and before the bomb exploded?
A About ten minutes, I should judge.
Q Did you after reaching the wagon from 107 Fifth Avenue, observe Mr. Spies, what he did and where he went?
A He remained on the wagon.
Q Where was he when you went to the wagon north where Mr. Parsons had gone?
A He was still on the wagon.
Q Where was he when you returned?
A He was still on the wagon.
Q That you say was from five to ten minutes--you got back from five to ten minutes before the explosion of the bomb?
A No, it was after I got to the wagon, it was about ten minutes after that that the bomb exploded.
Q You got back to the wagon about ten minutes before the bomb exploded, got back to your own wagon?
A I was back to the wagon about ten minutes when the bomb exploded.
Q Spies was there when you got back, I understand?
A He was.
Q Now, what occurred there that evening that you observed after your return to the speaker's wagon from the wagon where Parsons' was?
A Well, I went to the south end of the wagon, and I was observing, generally observing around
while I was on the wagon, and I looked down to the south, down south on Desplaines Street, and I got a glimpse of the police. The police were about the center of Randolph Street when I first saw them. They were marching up very rapidly. They were walking very fast; and they came directly up to us and halted and commanded the speaker to stop, in the name of the State of Illinois.
Q Did he command the meeting to disperse?
A The meeting to disperse in the name of the State of Illinois.
Q Do you know who made that proclamation?
A I do not--I am not going to give---I suppose it was some prominent man.
Q One of the police officials?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you observe whether he marched in advance of the head of the column?
A He did slightly.
Q How near to the wagon did the head of the column halt--I don't mean the officer who came up and made the proclamation, but the head of the column?
A The head of the column stopped, I should judge, from me to those chairs.
Q Over here to the front row of the jury?
Q Ten or twelve feet?
A Yes, about that.
Q What response, if any, did you hear made to the command that the meeting should disperse?
A I heard Mr. Fielden
say, "Well", he said, "that it was a peaceable meeting, that he didn't know that he had done anything to disturb the community in any way, shape or form. He didn't realize that there was anything wrong done, and as he spoke there was a policeman about ten feet that way and in the line of police said, raised his hand and said, "Get down there", and at that time we got down.
Q When you say "we got down" who do you mean?
A I mean I got down and said to Mr. Fielden, "Come now, let us get down". And he said, "Yes, we will get down". We got down. I got down first. I was in front of Mr. Fielden. When I got down one of Mr. Fielden's legs had got down already on the ground, and he was pulling the other one down when the report came.
Q The explosion of the bomb?
A Yes, that was the bomb.
Q You didn't see the bomb thrown?
A No sir, I did not.
Q During that time while you were behind the wagon and while Fielden and yourself were dismounting from it, was there any pistol shot by Fielden behind the wagon?
A No sir, he could not have shot, because he would have killed me--I was south of him.
Q I will ask you whether or not Fielden there had a revolver at the time, and fired at the police officers that were standing there in front, or at anybody else?
A No sir, he had not.
Q What did you and Fielden then do when the explosion occurred?
A I says to Mr. Fielden--as soon as the explosion occurred, we stood, I should judge a quarter of a minute, stood looking. I says to Mr. Fielden, "Come with me, and we started to the alleyway, the alleyway to the east end of the wagon, we started to the alleyway and Mr. Fieldden went to the alleyway with me. It was dark there and I lost track of him. I can't say whether Mr. Fielden went through the alleyway or where he went, but he went to the alley with me.
Q He went to the mouth of the alley with you?
A He went to the mouth of the alley with me.
Q That is where you lost him?
A Yes, I lost him there.
Q Where did you go after that?
A I went through the alley, west, east in the alley--then I went south out on Randolph Street.
Q From there what direction did you take?
A Went around to Zepf's Hall, went east to the next street, around about to Zepf's Hall.
Q I will ask you if after getting out of that wagon, Fielden stood up on the sidewalk, and stood between the wheels of the wagon and commenced firing from the wagon at the police, or firing in the direction of the police?
A He did not.
Q You didn't lose track of him or didn't separate from
him until you reached the mouth of the alley?
A I had my hands right on him awhile, until we reached the mouth of the alley.
Q Then you separated and don't know what became of him?
A No sir, I don't know what became of him.
Q Did you observe August Spies at the time the police came up and at the moment, or about the moment of the explosion of the bomb?
A When I saw the police, of course I was looking south. When I saw the police was looking south and of course was somewhat startled, because it was a surprise to me, and turned around to look at Fielden, and I would have to turn around to look at Fielden---I saw the police coming and as I turned around to look at Fielden, I saw Spies standing on the wagon.
Q Did you see Spies at any time get off the wagon?
A I did not.
Q Did Spies at that time when you observed the police come dismount from the wagon and go in the direction of the alley, the direction which you afterwards took?
Mr. Grinnell: That is hardly a fair question. He said he didn't see him after he left the wagon.
Mr.. Black: I will limit the time. I said at that time. Before you got off the wagon did Spies get off the wagon and go in the direction of the alley?
The Court: The right way would be for the witness to describe
what he saw.
Mr. Black: He has already said that he saw him on the wagon.
Q Did you see Spies get off the wagon?
A I did not.
Q You did not see him dismount and go in the direction of the alley?
A I did not.
Q The last you saw of Spies there he was still on the wagon?
A He was still on the wagon the last I saw of him.
Q Do you remember the substance of the speech, or any portion of the speeches of Parsons and Fielden, that you heard that night?
A Yes, I remember some.
Q Take Parsons, in the first instance, and tell me what you remember of Parsons speech.
A Of course, I being a socialist I didn't pay so much attention to it, as what I would probably if I had not, but I remember that Mr. Parsons spoke.
Q That is to say you are like the old deacon, that always never listened when his young minister preached, because he said he knew it was all right.
A Yes sir.
A I remember of Mr. Parsons making a remark in regard to the concentration of the wealth which is produced by the working people of America, and heard him say that it was necessary for them to organize so that they would become strong and powerful to rebut these influences which are brought to bear against them, and to use their forces against the laws which are made by the capitalistic class whereby they will not be able to fill
their pockets with that which the laboring people produces. He also spoke, and showed where the great millionaires of this country were continually concentrating the wealth into their own hands, which they really had no right to, which they had not earned one dollar's worth, but had stolen it from the laboring classes whom they hired as their wage slaves,and he said it was wrong. He said the working people ought to have a larger share of the profits of labor, than what they received. He said that it was necessary for them to organize. He advised them to organize, that they might be able to get their rights----that is, about the only language I understand nearly, of his speech.
Q Do you remember his saying anything about the strike in the southwest, or mentioning anything about or using the name of Jay Gould in his speech?
A Yes, I remember his speaking of Jay Gould and the southwestern strike.
Q Was there any response from the audience when the name of Jay Gould was mentioned?
A Yes, they said "Hang Jay Gould".
Q What did Parsons say to that, if anything?
A Parsons said it was wrong to hang Jay Gould. He said, if they would hang Jay Gould, the system remained and it was dangerous and a hundred other Jay Goulds would spring up in his place. He said that it was the system that created the Jay Goulds. It was not the individual he was fighting, but the system he
was aiming at which he wanted to displace, so these men would not be able to reap the benefits of other people's labor.
Q That was the substantial part of Parsons remarks which you recall is it?
A Yes, that is about all I know of his speech.
Q Do you recall what Fielden said that evening?
A Well, I only recollect a slight item of Mr. Fielden's speech. I heard him speak in regard to the workingmen who had sent different representatives to Congress and State Legislatures, to represent them there, to represent their cause, and to show the people that they were not receiving their just rights, and to try to have them enact laws whereby the working people received more of the share of the wealth they produced, than what they had. He said, now, he said, "don't you see what has been done, with all these men that have been sent to the State Legislature and Congress, and these different places", and said, "You see plainly what these men have done". He said, "They had done nothing". He said, "These same men who have been sent there to represent you have merely taken the money that has been offered them, as a bribe, the same as the others--" that is about all I know of it.
Q Do you remember any expressions made use of by him, with reference to the law or the system of law being the enemy of the working men, the suggestion that it should be
throttled, or anything of that kind, near the close of his remarks?
A There was something of that kind--I believe he said it.
Q Do you recall the words of his remarks in that connection?
A He said like this, Oh, yes--now I understand--now I have got it. He said, "Wherever the working people have tried to enact laws for their benefit, the law has turned around and throttled them. Now, it is your duty to organize in such a form and become so powerful that it will be utterly impossible for the law to throttle you".
Q That is as you recollect it?
A Yes sir.
Q How long was that before the explosion of the bomb or before the end of Fielden's remarks?
A Well, it was before the end of his remarks.
Q How many minutes?
A I could not just exactly say how long it was. I would not want to say, because I don't really remember just how long it was, but I know it was said during the course of his remarks.
Q Did you that night hear Fielden just before the police arrived or just as they were coming up to the wagon, say in a loud tone of voice, or otherwise, "here come the blood hound. You do your duty, and I'll do mine", or anything of that sort?
A No sir, I did not. I said to Mr. Fielden--
Q That is immaterial.
A No sir, I didn't hear it. He did not make that remark.
Q Did you hear the pistol firing that night?
A I did, yes sir.
Q When did it begin with reference to the explosion of the bomb?
A Well, I should say that it was instantly.
Q Followed then instantly without intermission?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you observe there by sight or hearing the direction from which the pistol shooting came?
A The pistol shooting that I heard was in front of me:. It was on the side of the police. I heard no shooting on the other side.
Q You heard no shooting on the part of the people?
A I did not, no sir.
Q When you were running down through the alley and making your escape, running eastward, through the alley, did you see any firing from any people around you or in front of you or about you,?
A No sir, I seen them all getting out of the way.
Q Did you see any shooting from the audience that night?
A I did not.
Cross Examination by
Q Where did you go that night?
A After the Haymarket meeting?
A I went to Zepf's Hall.
Q Then where?
A I came home.
Q What time did you get home?
A I judge I got home at half past eleven along there.
Q Where was your home?
A 229 West Lake Street.
Mr. Black: (Q) May I interrupt a moment. Mr. Snyder, when did you first ever hear of the word Ruhe?
A I never heard it.
Q That is new to you?
A That is a new thing to me.
Q I will ask you whether or not you observed the word Ruhe, published in the Arbeiter Zeitung on the 4th of May?
A I did not.
Q Do you read German?
A I do not, I am a Yankee.
Q Born in this country, as you said?
A Yes, my father was born in this country.
Q Your grandfather also a native of this country?
A He was born here.
Mr. Grinnell: (Resuming cross examination.)
Q Were you at Parsons that night--did you go to where Parsons lived, that night?
A No sir.
Q Did you go there the next day?
A No sir.
Q The next night?
A This was Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday--I went to Parsons house I think Thursday night.
Q Did you see Parsons?
A No sir.
Q Had you seen him up to that time?
A No sir.
Q You left a note there, wrote a note and left it under the door?
Q Where Mrs. Parsons lived?
Q Did you see her again before you were arrested?
A Not after I left the note.
Q Didn't see her again?
A No sir.
Q Do you know where the note is?
A It was over at the central detective's station the last I saw it.
Mr. Foster: I will ask Mr. Grinnell where it is.
Mr. Grinnell: I don't know where it is. I think it has been mislaid and lost.
Q You have been in jail, as Captain Black says, since the 8th of May?
A That is where I have been.
Q You are in there yet?
A I will be there as soon as I get through with this evidence.
Q You expect to be there until the case is tried?
A I expect to be there, yes sir.
Q You are a member of the armed group, the American group.
A No sir.
Q Never was a member?
A Never was of an armed group.
Q Didn't you ever meet in Zepf's Hall?
A Yes sir.
Q Greif's Hall?
A Yes, Greif's Hall.
Q Did you ever drill there?
A No sir.
Q Marked about?
A Yes, marched about.
Q There in the hall?
A Yes sir.
Q Didn't have no guns?
A No guns.
Q But you marched backwards and forwards in twos and threes?
A We marched sufficiently to keep a line in the street, so when we had a picnic or procession, anything of that kind.
Q That is what it was for?
A That is what it was for.
Q Was there an anmed section of the American Group?
A No, there was not an armed section of the American group.
Q You are speaking positively?
A I am speaking positively.
Q Speaking of what you know?
A Speaking of what I know.
Q If there had been one you would have known it?
A I would have known it.
Q Do you know Walters?
A I am slightly acquainted with him.
Q Did you ever drill under his direction?
A I never did.
Q Did you ever drill under a German officer, Moussinger?
A I don't know him.
Q Never seen him?
A I don't know him.
Q You don't know but you have seen him?
A I don't. know but what I have seen him. I have seen a great many people that I don't know.
Q How many times did you meet at Greif's Hall, with the American Group?
A I met there four or five times.
A It has been last fall some time, I can't exactly say the date or day we met there. It is probably along during the last year.
Q How often did you meet?
A Sometimes once a week, sometimes twice a week; I know I went three, four or five times.
Q Did you make speeches there?
A No sir.
Q Did you ever make any speeches?
A I have never missed any opportunity to show the working people the injustice which they are laboring under.
Q Could not you answer the question, answer yes or no, whether you in fact made speeches in different parts of the town, different halls?
A There is a great deal in that word speech, about a man making a speech.
Q Did you get up and talk to any of the people?
A No, what do you call often?
Q Did you at the American group, did you ever at the American Group?
A Often, we might say often was every five minutes.
Q Did you attend any meeting of the armed group of which you spoke?
A There was not any armed group.
Q Did you attend any meeting at the American group of which you spoke, addressed your companions there?
A I have been chairman of the International Workingmens Association, of the American Group.
Q That is what I have reference to.
A Yes, I have been there.
Q Have you ever made speeches in the American Group of the International Workingmens Association?
A I presided as Chairman.
Q Is that the only speech you made?
A It is what you might call a speech.
Q I mean talked to the people?
A No, it ain't.
Q Did you ever talk to the people on the Lake Front?
Q Ever at any other hall but Greif's Hall?
Q Did you ever attend more than one meeting at Greif's hall, of which you spoke? That you made an address to the people?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, did you used to read the Alarm?
A Every time it came out.
Q How long have you been a socialist?
A Well, I was born one.
Q Born in America?
A Born in the United States.
Q Who was on the wagon there with you?
A There was myself--at what time do you mean?
Q Tell me who was on the wagon with you all the time?
A I could not tell you all the time who was on the wagon.
Q You know who was there?
A No, because at first---
Q Who was on the wagon when you came back, after going to
the north wagon, where you met Mr. Parsons and Holmes?
A I saw Mr. Spies, Mr. Fielden--that was the only ones I knew.
Q Did you know anybody else there?
Q Brown was there?
A Yes, but I didn't see him. He had went back to the hall with Parsons.
Q Rau was there?
A I didn't see Rau.
Q You know him?
Q Wasn't Fischer there?
A I didn't see Fischer there.
Q You know Schnaubelt was there?
A I don't know Schnaubelt.
Q Wasn't Schnaubelt on the wagon early in the evening?
A I don't know whether he was or not-- I don't know him.
Re-Direct Examination by
Q What was the paper, if you remember, in which you read the notice of the meeting of the American Group?
A Well, really I couldn't say, but I think it was in the Daily News, but I won't be positive.
Q You say you did some marching around in Zepf's Hall on two or three occasions. How often did you go through those evolutions?
A Perhaps five or six times.
Q Did your American Group ever purchase or ever own any arms?
A Never. I never saw any there either. We were not organized for that purpose.
Q Do you remember whether or not when you were going through these evolutions there, you adopted any name for
A Not any. We never adopted any name.
Q If that was done, it was done while you were not there?
A It was not done. I was there every time.
Mr. Grinnell: They never skipped Snyder, you bet on that,
The Witness: You bet your bottom dollar.
Mr. Black: One further question. I meant the question to be general when I said, if you ever had any arms. Did you ever practice with dynamite?
A No sir, I never saw any dynamite.