Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Examined and compared the compositions of several pieces of metal taken from victims' bodies and confiscated bombs. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Louis Lingg and bomb-making (vol.K 665).
Testimony of Walter S. Haines, 1886 July 30.
Volume K, 664-674, 11 p.
Haines, Walter S.
Professor of Chemistry, Rush Medical College.
Go to Next Witness | Return to Previous Witness | Return to Trial TOC | Return to the HADC Table of Contents
[Image, Volume K, Page 664]
Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1
Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.
Examined and compared the compositions of several pieces of metal taken from victims' bodies and confiscated bombs. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Louis Lingg and bomb-making (vol.K 665).
WALTER S. HAINES
a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. Ingham, and testified as follows:
Q What is your name?
A Walter S. Haines.
Q What is your proffession?
A I am a proffessor of chemistry in Rush Medical College in this city.
Q Are you connected with any other institution?
A I am not now connected with any other institution; but previous to occupying my present chair I was proffessor of chemistry in the Chicago Medical College.
Q For how long a time have you been proffessor of chemistry in Rush Medical College.?
A I have been proffessor of chemistry there for the last ten years.
Q For how long a time were you in the Chicago Medical College?
A I was there four years.
Q And devoted the whole of your time to chemistry?
A Yes sir, practically the whole time.
Q Practical chemistry?
A Yes, sir.
Q Except when you were engaged in teaching?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you make any examination of any metal at the request
of the States attorney, Mr. Grinell?
A Yes sir, I have examined several pieces of metal.
Q Now, I wish you would state to the jury, describe the pieces of whom you obtained them, and the result of your investigation?
A I received from Captain Schaack on the 24th of June this year a piece of bomb said to have been connected with Lingg: and before I, for the purpose of designation call it "Lingg bomb No.1." On the same day I received from Dr. J.B. Murphy, a piece of metal said to have been taken from officer Murphy, and therefore designated by me as "Murphy bomb". On the 22nd of July I received a piece of metal said to have been taken from officer Degan, and which I therefore designate as the "Degan bomb".
Q Did you receive that from Mr. Furthman, the gentleman connected with the States attorney's office?
A The last piece was received from Mr. Furthman. I subsequently received from officer Whalen a piece of bomb said to have been connected with Lingg, which I therefore designate "Lingg bomb, No. 2". The next day I received from Captain Schaack pieces of two other bombs, also said to have been connected with Lingg, which I designate therefore as the "Lingg bombs 3 and 4"; and the same day I like wise received from Mr. Furthman a portion of a bomb said to have been connected with Mr Spies, and which I designate therefore as the "Spies bomb". These were all subjected to chemical examination. The Lingg bombs, those which I have designated as the Lingg bombs
No. 1,2,3and 4, had all a similar composition, laying aside bomb No.2, laying that aside for the present, the other three bombs, Lingg bomb No.1, No. 3and No4 were found to consist chiefly of lead, with a small percentage of tin, and traces in addition of antimony, iron and zine. The amount of tin in these three bombs differed, each one containing a slightly different proportion from any of the others. One of them contained about one and nine tenths per cent. of tin, the remainder being lead, and traces of antimony, iron and zinc. Another contained about two and four tenths per cent, of tin, the remainder being lead, with traces of antimony, iron and zinc. The third one contained about two and a half per cent. of tin the remainder being lead with the same traces of antimony, iron and zinc. The three therefore of the four bombs that were examined had very similar composition, consisting of exactly the same constituents-- the only difference being a little variation in the amount of tin in the three. The bomb designated as the Lingg bomb No. 2 differed somewhat from the other three.
It contained more tin, and consequently less lead. It also contained a little more antimony and a little more zinc.
The amount of tin in this bomb was very nearly seven percent. the amount of lead being correspondingly reduced. Upon examining the pieces of metal taken from the officers bodies--
Mr. BLACK: (interrupting) Q Do you know anything about the metal being taken from officers bodies?
A No sir.
MR. BLACK: Then designate it as a piece of metal furnished by somebody.
Mr. INGHAM: He simply designates them that way for the purpose of convenience.
THE WITNESS: I designate one as the Murphy bomb, and the other as the Degan bomb.
THE COURT: Give us the materials of the Murphy bomb?
I found that the Murphy bomb was composed of the same constituents as I found in the three Lingg bombs I have spoken of namely tin, a small proportion, of lead, chiefly with traces of antimony, iron and zinc, the amount of tin being in round numbers one and six tenths per cent. The piece designated as the Degan bomb consisted of the same constituents as the others, namely of tin, lead with traces of antimony, iron and zine-- the amount of tin being in round numbers one and six or seven tenths per cent; the remainder lead, with the traces I have laready spoken of. The Spies bomb, the bomb that I call the Spies bomb, was found like the others to consist also chiefly of lead with a small quantity of tin and traces of the same antimony, iron and zinc. The amount of tin in this bomb was one and one tenths per cent,. in round numbers, the remainder being lead with traces of the other metals I have spoken of.
MR INGHAM: Q Before you get to bomb which you call Lingg bomb No. 2-- you say that the ingredients entering into the composition of all the pieces which you have described so far, were the same?
A The constituents were the same, differing slightly in quantity.
Q That is, you found the same constituents in every piece you have described so far, the only difference was a difference in proportions?
A Yes sir.
Q You found more tin in some than you did in others?
A Every bomb differed from every other bomb examined slightly in the amount of tin, but they all contained the essential ingredients the same.
Q Did the different pieces of the same bomb that you examined differ slightly in their proportions.?
A Yes sir, the two halves of the same bomb differed slightly in the proportions of the metals present.
Q Did the piece of metal which you call the Murphy bomb differ in its proportions from the piece of metal which you describe as the Degan bomb?
A It differed slightly. The Deganbomb contained slightly more tin than that which I call the Murphy bomb.
Q But the ingredients were the same
A The ingredients were exactly the same.
Q Is there any commercial product or substance anywhere from which those pieces of metal could have been made?
A There is no commercial substance with which I am acquainted that has such a composition.
Q They must therefore have been made of a mixture?
Q This lead, commercial lead, does it contain any ingredients
except lead itself?
A commercial lead frequently contains traces of other substances, but as far as I am acquainted commercial lead never contains tin.
Q Of what is solder composed?
A Solder is composed of a mixture of tin and lead. It generally consists of from a third to a half tin, and the remainder lead.
Q What commercial substances could have been used to produce the mixture which you examined?
Q Lead must have been the basis for the preparation of these various articles, and this must have been mixed either with tin or with some substance containing tin, as for instance solder, slight traces of antimony, zinc and iron are present in a great number of metals-- it came probably from lead and tin or lead and solder used, in compounding them.
Q Now, describe the Ling bomb which you designate as bomb No.2.?
A That contains rather more tin than the others, and a proportionate less quantity of lead. It contains about seven per cent. It contains also more antimony than the others contained; and it contained a perceptibly larger proportion of zinc, and a minutet race in addition of copper, differing there fore somewhat from the other bombs tested.
Q Have you examined these articles?
A I have tested them partially.
Q What is that which I now hand you?
A This is a piece of
ordinary commercial solder, composed essentially of tin and lead.
Q What is that which I now hand you?
A This is a piece of tin, block tin, a very good commercial article of that metal.
Q Did you examine this piece of candlestick?
A I have examined it.
Q Of what is that composed?
A That is composed of tin and lead, with a certain amount of animony and zinc and a little copper.
Q Would a mixture of lead and this material (indicating) make the mixture which you decsribe as the Lingg bomb No. 2.?
MR. BLACK: That is a question that in a certain sense answers itself, and does not need expert testimony.
THE COURT: As you have given the constituents of the different metals, when they are mixed the same constituents would be in the mixture?
Mr. INGHAM: Q Did you find in this toy or piece of candle stick, or whatever it is, together with the lead you examined all the substances which you found in Lingg bomb No.2?
Q I wish you would describe again the constituents of Lingg bomb No.2?
Objected to; objection sustained.
A JUROR: Q Can you state the per cent of antimony in No.2?
A I didn't separate the antimony in No.2, and didn't make an accurate determination of it.
The precise quantity of antimony and tin is very difficult to determine where it is present in a small amount. I judge it was a fraction of one percent.
A JUROR: I did not get the description of the Spies' bomb?
A The Spies bomb contained about one and on tenth per cent tin, the remainder lead except traces, minute traces of antimony iron and zinc which were an important so far as their quantity was concerned.
MR. INGHAM: Q Do you know where proffersor Patten is now, or where he was a day or two ago?
A A day or two ago he was in the Presbyterian hospital sick. He has been there for two weeks.
Q Instead of working with him, you worked in conjunction with Prof. Delafontaine?
A Yes sir.
Q Some of these bombs you took in pieces?
A Yes sir.
Q Can you designate this as one of them?
A Yes sir, that is the bomb that I designate as the Spies bomb and I cut a little myself from this top of the bomb.
Q These pieces of metal I show you, the solder and tin you examined yourself?
A I did.
Q Look at the bomb which I now show you.
Mr. ZEISLER: I that the shell which the reporter Wilkinson said hereceived?
Mr. INGHAM:: That is the shell which the peporter Wilkinson said he received from Spies.
THE WITNESS; This is a bomb from which I scraped pieces myself-- the bomb having been given me for that purpose by
Capt. Schaack. This is the bomb which I designate as the Lingg bomb No.4.
(Mr. Ingham here handed witness another bomb).
THE WITNESS: I don't think I took metal myself from this.
Q Look at the bomb which I now show you-- did you take metal from that?
A This is the bomb furnished me by Capt. Schaack and from the inside of which I scraped a quantity of metal and it is the one I have designated as the Lingg bomb No 3.
Q Look at the bomb I now show you.
A This is another bomb furnished by Capt. Schaack from which I cut a small piece, and is the one I designate as Lingg bomb NO. 1.
Q That is you took a piece from one half of this?
A I did, Yes sir.
Q In working with Prof. Delfontaine, did you give him the pieces of metal which he used, which he examined?
A I gave Prof. Delafontaine pieces of the various Linggs bombs, pieces of the Degan and Murphy bombs, but he himself at the same time that I did, took a piece of the Spies bomb. I also supplied Prof. Delafontaine specimens of the tin of the solder which I have already spoken of.
Q At the time you handed them to him, did you designate the pieces so he would know them?
A I designated them in such a way, marked them in such a way, that he would have the same naming as I.
Cross Examination by
Q I suppose if you take the ordinary commercial tin, and the ordinary commercial lead, and mix them, you will find traces of antimony, zinc and iron that you spoke about?
A Generally, Yes sir.
Q You would not expect form the analysis you made of this composition that there was a distinct putting together in a vessel, of one portion of antimony and one of iron, and one of lead, and one of zinc and one of tin, to from what you have here?
A I do not think from the small quantity that existed of antimony, iron and zinc, that they were deliberately added. They probably came as impurities in the other two constituents.
Q In which of the constituents would they be as imputities?
A They may be present in both.
Q Iron in both?
A Iron in both.
A Antimony-- that is more likely however to be present in lead. There was only a trace in this.
Q Zinc in both?
A Zinc may be present in both although more likely to be in lead.
Q There is a difference in your examinatiins, a difference in the quantity of tin?
A In all the bomb examined there was a different quantity.
Q The principle ingredient was lead?
A Yes sir.
Q Is not it true that more than 98 per cent. was lead, except in the Lingg bomb No.2 or 4?
A It would average in round numbers about 98 per cent of lead.
Q And two of zinc and these other ingredients?
A Two of tin, and the traces which are insignificant of the others
Q So then you would say that in the formation of the metal from which all these bombs were made, that there was a light quantity of commercial tin, and very slight proportion, probably not over two per cent of the others, and the lead?
A Either tin or some compound containing it, as for instance solder or some other substance containing it.