Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Arrested George Engel. Conducted experiments with dynamite confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office and the defendants. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.K 590), weapons and explosives (vol.K 589), experiments with explosives (vol.K 598), items confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office or the defendants' homes (vol.K 604), discovery of bombs or explosives out of doors (vol.K 592), socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 594), anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.K 594), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 590), advocating revolution (vol.K 607), "Revenge" circular (vol.K 608), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.K 594), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 590), Neff's (Thoeringer) Hall (vol.K 607), Greif's Hall (vol.K 596), Carpenters' Union (vol.K 595), arrest of Lingg (vol.K 588), questioning of Lingg after his arrest (vol.K 589), Lingg's distribution of bombs (vol.K 607), arrest of Engel (vol.K 588), questioning of Engel after his arrest (vol.K 596).
Testimony of Michael Schaack, 1886 July 29.
Volume K, 587-617, 31 p.
Schaack, Michael. 1843-1898
Captain, Chicago Police Department.
Go to Next Witness | Return to Previous Witness | Return to Trial TOC | Return to the HADC Table of Contents
[Image, Volume K, Page 587]
Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.
Arrested George Engel. Conducted experiments with dynamite confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office and the defendants. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.K 590), weapons and explosives (vol.K 589), experiments with explosives (vol.K 598), items confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office or the defendants' homes (vol.K 604), discovery of bombs or explosives out of doors (vol.K 592), socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 594), anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.K 594), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 590), advocating revolution (vol.K 607), "Revenge" circular (vol.K 608), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.K 594), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 590), Neff's (Thoeringer) Hall (vol.K 607), Greif's Hall (vol.K 596), Carpenters' Union (vol.K 595), arrest of Lingg (vol.K 588), questioning of Lingg after his arrest (vol.K 589), Lingg's distribution of bombs (vol.K 607), arrest of Engel (vol.K 588), questioning of Engel after his arrest (vol.K 596).
A witness for the people, having been duly sworn, was examined in chief by Mr. Ingham. and testified as follows:
Q What is your name?
A Michael Skcaack.
Q What is your business?
A Police officer.
Q What position do you occupy on the force?
A Captain now.
Q Connected with what station?
A Well, I got charge of the Fifth precinct. I got headquarters at East Chiacgo Avenue station.
Q How many precincts have you in your charge?
A There is two stations besides Chicago Avenue.
Q Three all together?
A Yes sir.
Q Your headquarters are at the Chicago Avenue station?
A Yes sir.
Q How long have you been connected with the force all together?
A On eighteen years.
Q How long have you been captain?
A It will be a year next month.
Q You have occupied the position. Did you begin as a patrolman?
A Yes sir.
Q Occupied positions between patrolman, up to captain, have you?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know any of the defendants in this case?
A I know Mr. Spies, Schwab, Neebe, and Fischer. I have seen them. I am not acquainted with them-- no personal acquaintance.
Q Do you know any of the others now?
A Only what I see them here and there what I arrested-- was ordered arrested.
Q Which of the defenadnts were arrested and confined in your station?
A George Engle and Louis Lingg.
Q When were they arrested?
A Lingg was arrested on the 14th of May last, and Engle was arrested about the 18th,
Q Were they brought to your station on those days?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you first have a conversation with Lingg about this case?
A It was about three o'clock in the afternoon of
the 14th of May.
Q Of the day he was arrested?
A Yes sir.
Q What time of the day was he brought into the station?
A I think that was about the time he was brought in; probably a little before. Between 2 and 3.
Q What was that conversation? Give them in the order in which they occurred as near as you can?
A well, first I asked him his name. I asked him where he lived. He told me his name. He told me he had lived at 442 Sedgwick street. I asked him how long he was out of work; he said about four weeks.
Mr BLACK: Of course we object in behalf of the defendants other than Lingg. This is conversation after the Haymarket.
THE COURT: Yes. It is not admissible as against the others; it is only as to himself.
THE WITNESS: Well, I asked him whether he was at the meeting at 54 West Lake street, on Monday night, held there in the basement, and he said yes. I asked him where he was on Tuesday night May 14th. He said he was at home. I asked him if he was home all the evening; he said no, that him and a man by the name of Seliger had been on Larrabee street, up along Larrabee street quite a ways north, and had several galsses of beer, and from there he went home. I asked him then about making dynamite bombs; he said yes, he made some. I asked him what he made them for. He said he made them for to use them, and use them-himself. He looked very much excited, and as I heard from
the officers that they had trouble with him--
Mr. Zeisler: We don't care much what you heard.
THE WITNESS: I asked what made him be down on the police. He said that he had reason for it. I asked what reason he had. He said that they had clubbed him out at McCormick's, and I asked him-- he said-- then he was in the conversation-- that he was down on capitalists, and he found fault with the police; they took the part of the capitalists. Then I asked him again about using those dynamite bombs, why it wasn't more proper to use other kinds of arms, guns and so on. He said-- then the answer was that what was the use-- if the captalists turn out the militia and the police force with their gatling guns and cannons, they with their revolvers couldn't do anything. And therfore they adopted these bombs and dynamite so they could fight the authorities or the officers. He said "with our little revolvers we couldn't do anything". I asked him who learned him to make those bombs, dynamite. He said that he learned it in books, scientific books of warfare published by Most of New York. I asked him where he got his dynamite. He said he got it on Lake street somewheres near Dearborn,. I asked him how he got it. He said he went in and asked for a couple of pounds and got it, and bought some fuse and caps, and told me what he paid for it, too.
Mr. INGHAM: Do you remember what he said he paid for it?
A I can tell if I look for my memorandum.
Q Well, go ahead.
A So I asked him if he used it all up. He said no. And I asked him then about making bombs. He said he made bombs of gas-pipe and also of lead, made some of metal, or metal or lead mixed. I asked him where he got the gas pipe. He said, Find it In the street sometimes. I asked him how he got the lead. He said about the same way. I asked him about how many he made. He said that as all he did make, what we found in his place.
Q Did you show those to him at the time?
A I had one very similar. I had one somewherees.
Q Can you tell which one is the one you showed to him?
A Niether of then (indicating) I didn't have them then. It is another one. It is a bomb what was found by the firemen I think.
Q That is the one you had there at the time?
A Yes sir.
Q And one found and handed to you by the fireman?
A Yes sir.
Q Were they round bombs?
A One was a round one, and two long ones.
Q What other conversation did you have with him, if any that you can remember about?
A He said that he made those bombs, and he meant to use them too, as I said before. Then Mrs Seliger, we put her face to face with him, up in the office, and she accused him right there, that he was making bombs commenced making bombs a few weeks after he come to their house. We are satisfied he made more than that- and he didn't
say anything or answer anything to it; looked at the woman, and he didn't say anything; to it; And a also there was a man arrested by the name of John Theilen, and Theilen faced him right in the same office, and from Theilen we had recovered two cigar boxes full of dynamite, and two of those bombs. I had the dynamite right there.
Q Were thse the bombs, and was that the dynamite (showing witness) which officer Hoffman brought to you?
A Yes sir. It has been shown here in court -- Yes sir. And I told him "Now. says I, "this man Theilen here says that you gave him this May the 4th. What do you say to it?" Well, he says. "that is so," and at the same time Lingg looked right square at Theilen, and shook his head for him to keep still. Theilen said to him, "never mind, you might as well tell it; it is all out anyhow; they all know it". And that is about the last of that conversation.
Q Did you have any conversation with him at a time when Seliger was present?
A Not as I remember. Only Mr Seliger; then I had an order to bring all his--
Q Just one moment-- while we are on this subject of Linggs. Do you remember of having any conversation with him in the presence of Lehman?
A Gustav Lehman?
Q Well, either of the Lehmans?
A I do not.
Q About a bomb being obtained at a saloon?
A That was his brother.
Q Well, tell that. Give that.
A Well, Lehman wasn't present at the time.
Q Was Lingg present?
A No sir. They were not face to face.
Q Then go on.
A I had ordered all his-- when we discovered the lead, and every thing, the officers telephoned to me and I told them to bring everything down belonging Lingg -- and everything that was in his room. This trunk here (indicating large trunk) was brought down, and in the evening I was alone for a little while in the office, and I opened it and looked through it; and I saw there (indicating some part of the inside of the trun) -- I discovered here there was something what was not right, and I took a chisel and I took all this stuff off here, and there is a false bottom here, and in there I found two long cartiridges of dynamite and some fuse already fixed-- that is, those fuse about four incles long, and caps. A big coil of fuse. That big coil of fuse in that box there (indicating).
Q Let me ask you, when this trunk came here, came down, were there peices, cleets, whatveer you call tham, nailed on there (indicating the inside of the trunk).
A Oh yes I took them off as I stated.
Q And would this slide up and down then (indicating a board in the trunk)?
A No sir, it would not move then.
Q Now go on.
A I asked him if that was the dynamite he used in his bombs, the bombs he professed he built. He said yes; and by examining it, the dynamite he had-- this (indicating) is only saw dust, something like this. And the dynamite I found in the bombs is like that. (indicating small box; That
is the dynamite, or the same what has been in the bombs; that I took out of one of the bombs which I afterwards exploded.
Q The dynamite that is done up in the package is lighted (incolor)?
A Yes sir. That is the color of it. That is the way it is done up, too, like this here, (indicating cartridge), and what was found in his bombs, except one bomb, was black. I got three kinds of dynamite; what the officer swore, the dynamite he gave to Lehman; it came back to me, that gallon box; that is black; it looks like charcoal, is used for it, and the dynamite in the trunk here is white like that (indicating) and the dynamite in most of those bombs is all of this (the dark colored); the same as he gave Thielen, those two boxes. I asked him also if he had any knowledge of what strength they had; he said yes, he had tried those bombs, he had tried a round one and tried a long one. He told me he took a long one and went out in the open air, out here somewheres north and he tried one and they worked well. He says he put one right in the crotch of a tree and slit it all up. I asked him if he knows Spies; he said yes. I asked him how long he had know him; he said for some time; and I asked him if he ever was over to the Arbeiter Zeitung office; he said yes, he had been there about five times, that he has been at a meeting and brought a report of the report of the meeting and so on.
Q He had been at what meetings and taken reports-- where?
A Socialistic, and Anarchist meetings. Some of them been out in Lake view, and some of them been at other places where
they held them.
Q And taken the reports to the--
A To the Arbeiter Zeitung?
Q Arbeiter office. Give all the rest of the conversation that you can.
A That is about all the conversation.
Q Did you have any conversation with him about what part he took in the meetings?
A Well, he has been finance secretary, as he stated himself, and also I found cards of this Carpenter Union, a branch of the union.
Q Did he say anything as to what part he had taken in socialistic meetings.
A No, he did not. I asked him how long he was a socialist. He said ever since he could think. Been a socialist in Europe.
Q Did you ask him anything about how long he had been in this country?
A He told me as far as I remember it is either last July or August he come over.
Q He said he had been a socialist as long as he could think?
A Yes. I asked him in this way-- I asked him how is it when he said he was only so long in this country that he was recognized as a light among those fellows, and that he was such a young man, and only a little while in the country, and then I asked that question, how long was he a socialist.
Q What did he say in reply to your question as to how it was that he was a leader among them?
A He didn't make any particular answer.
He said that he was a socialist ever since he could think.
Q Did you ever have any conversation with Engle after he was brought to the station?
A I did.
Q What time was he brought to the station?
A I think that was going on towards evening.
Q The same day?
A Oh no. That was the 18th; it was later.
Q Now, give the conversation which you had with Engle.
Same objection as to all the defendants other than Engle. Objection overruled; exception by defendants
A When Engle was brought in the first conversation I had with him was very short. I asked him where he lived, and so on; he told me. I asked him where he was on the 3rd day of May, or Monday. He said he worked for a friend, and he was doing some fresco work for him, a fiend of the name of Koch, somewheres out west, somewheres there. And I asked him if he went to the meeting that night; he said yes, he went to 54 West Lake street, to that meeting, but was only there a little while. I asked him if he made a speech there; he says no, he did not; he said he didn't have anything say to anybody, and that nobody authorized him to make a speech, and from there he went home. That is about all then, for that night.
Q Well, now, the next conversation?
A Then a few days, a day or two, probably two days, his wife and daughter came there; they wanted to see him, and they
didn't see him until this day I had his wfe in the office and I sent for him. And his wife gave him a bouquet of flowers, and all at once he broke out and says "what good are those flowers to me"? He says, "They got me down here in a dark cell", and claiming to be abused, and so on. I told him that I didn't think anybody was abused, and he said he was. There was no water running in his cell. I sent for the officer at once, that is, the janitor, and he says it was. And he complained of the cell being dark, and I told him if there was another cell then to spare, from Engle's, to change him, because we had so many people arrested right along that all the cells were full. This was the only cell empty near the corner.
Q How many did you have arrested at that time?
A Oh. we had quite a lot of those men-- that is, besides what we had, and were brought in from detectives and from all parts. The cells have been crowded right along, and sometimes we could not even keep them off; and he broke out-- he was terribly excited, and his wife said to him then, she says, "Papa, do you see now what trouble you got yourself into"? And his answer was-- he said, "Mamma, I can't help it". I said to him, "Now why don't you stop that nonsense? You see how bad your wife feels". Well, he says, "I promised my wide so many times that I would stop this anarchism or socialism business, but I can't stop it". He says, "What is in me has got to come out; I can't help it; that i am so gisted with this eloquence"--
the way he expressed himself, and he says, "It is a curse; it has been a curse to a good many other men, what has been so possessed," and he says, "A good many men have suffered already for the same cause, and I am willing to suffer and I will stand it like a man". He also spoke of a woman once taking a leading part in this kind of business, the anarchists.
Q What name did he mention?
A I think Louisa Michel.. He says she was a great woman, and she had suffered for cause and he was willing to do the same thing. I asked him where he was at the evening of the fourth. He said he was home laying on the lounge. That is about all the conversation I had with him.
Q Now, how many bombs have you had at your station brought there by officers?
Objected to as immaterial. Objectection sustained.
Q Did you ever experiment with any of the bombs or any of the dynamite brought to your station?
Q Yes, I have tried all the dynamites what has been brought to me, and what Lingg has given to other people, and also all the bombs.
Q Now, I wish you would describe to the jury your experiments?
A I had this kind made (producing piece of gas pipe about five inches long with ends screwed on). I had five of those made myself, just big enough to try those dynamites, as they were called, to see if they would go off and what the result would be. There was one of those filled.
(indicating the gas pipe). Now, there was one bomb what was found in Lingg's room as testified to by officer Schuttler, and which also the doctor got a piece of, apart from this dynamite what was found in Lingg's room.
Q I did not quite understand about that bomb and the dynamite.
THE COURT: The bomb which he says Schuttler spoke of.
THE WITNESS: That was found in Linggs' room. loaded.
Mr. INGHAM: That was the bomb, which Shuttler says was loaded when he found it?
A Yes sir.
Q Now. you say a portion of that bomb you gave to Prof. Haynes?
A Yes, the lead bomb, the original bomb. But I didn't blow that; I only took the dynamite what was in that bomb and tried with one of those things (indicating the section of gas pipe). I had a box made two feet square of inch boards, pretty well nailed together. And me and officer Stift, Shuttler and Lowenstein and Whalen, we went out to Lake View, out in the bushes, and we dug a hole-- had a hole dug three feet deep, put the box into it and had a hole cut in the top so that I could let the bomb in it, and we put a fuse and cap to it and touched it off, and this was found (indicating fragments).
Q Was that one of these fulminating caps?
A One of them caps, yes.
A piece of fuse was attached and this is what has been left of the bomb, a bomb like that (indicating).
Q Those are the pieces you found"?
A Yes sir, we took that out of the wood, and it blowed the box all to pieces.
The top flew up and some of the pieces now hang up there now, if they havn't blown down since, up on the trees; and it smashed that box all-- everything in that box to pieces.
Mr BLACK: The purpose of that proof is to, show the strength of dynamite, is it? To show the strength of dynamite found in this box?
Mr. GRINELL: It does show the strength of it. That is one purpose.
THE WITNESS: The purpose I did it for was to see if it was dynamite if it would go off.
Mr. Zeisler: Well, we don't care for your purpose.
THE WITNESS: I was not going to guess at a thing until I had tried it. Well, that is one. Now, this is another bomb the same as this here (indicating),-- and this is one of the black dynamite, as i stated, of this gallon can, what has been given --that has been given by Lingg to Lehman, as has been stated here.
Mr GRINELL: What is the result of that examination? Is that here?
THE WITNESS: (indicates the fragments of the exploded bomb).
Mr. INGHAM: Was that the darker or lighter dynamite?
A That was darker, this one here is filled with. That there was put in a beer keg (indicating). The beer keg here will show how it smashed it all to pieces. (indicating the remnants in court).
Mr. BLACK: Will your honor tell us what part of this case requires this illustration?
Mr INGHAM: It shows that this tuff meant business.
THE COURT: Well, as to any general illustration of the strength of dynamite, of course it is not competent or material. But whether this particular compound that was found was dynamite that would produce such effects, that is admissible.
Mr. BLACK: Well, the point that I make is this-- that should be proved like any other fact, by the testimony of somebody that saw it. It is not necessary to bring in all this kindling wood here.
THE COURT: NO, it don't think that is necessary, but then it is a matter of choice of the party presenting his case, how much of the detail he will prove.
THE WITNESS: This is one (indicating a box).
THE COURT: Whether a particular class of evidence is competent or not, of course, is a question of the court; but whether the party shall accumulate evidence or not, is not a question for the court, but a question of the party presenting it, how far he will go in presenting the evidence, is left to the party presenting it.
Mr. INGHAM: Now go on, with that,.
A This here is from the dynamite what Lingg give to Theilen; also in a bomb like this (inidcating gas pipe section). That is the result of that. (indicating fragments of bomb).
Q Well, the dynamite which you say Lingg gave to Theilen, you mean dynamite handed you by officer Hoffman?
A Yes, what dynamite that has been handed over to me by the officers. Now, here is a lead bomb from Lingg to Lehman and Lehman to Hoffman, and come back to me again. (Referring to fragments). That is here; that is one of them round bombs. This I tried here this last Friday. Down here at the boiler shop we got a round piece of a -- something like a tub without a bottom, of boiler iron, a quarter of an inch thick, and it is nineteen inches high and thirty - four inches wide. Then we had a top forty- two inhes wide, and that weighed a hundred and eighty pounds.
Q What material was the top?
A That is steel. Now, I took two- inch planks and put them on the ground first. Where is that sheet? I had four thicknesses of this, large (referring to metal sheets) and put them on top of the planks. I put the bomb right in the center, put the top on with the tub on this, and put a big stone weighing about a hundred and twenty- five pounds, I should think, and before we done all this, I had this tub, or what - ever you may call it, painted inside so we could see where the lead would strike and how it would effect it. I touched it off myself. And she went off; It knocked the tub way up in the air, and the stone what was on top was crushed all to pieces-- half of it-- that is, half of it flew off, and half of is was all crushed to pieces; and this is the result of the lead after we picked it up on top of the boards (indicating
the fragment of the tub).
Q What is that (indicating)?
A That is the tin that I stated where I put the bomb on.
Q These are pieces of the board (indicating)?
A Yes sir, and here is the piece of tin laid on that piece there (indicating). Here was the bolt what was on the bomb. (indicating). The nut we did not find.
MR. ZEISLER: Where was that found (the bolt)?
A That was found a littles ways from the explosive-- that is about right there.
MR. INGHAM: Now, did you count the marks on the painted tin?
A I counted the marks.
MR. GRINELL: Painted boiler iron?
A Yes sir. I counted one hundred and ninety five places where lead struck it. It is on the top and on the sides and everywhere, and over there what was the result as it went downwards, it shows there (indicating).
MR. INGHAM: did you count any on the bottom you saw?
A Look at there (indicating); the whole thing is what I counted where lead struck a hundred and ninety five places.
Q Have any effect on the boiler iron?
A The round part of the boiler iron, there is three or four places-- well there is six places where it is bulged out, but there is two places where it cracked it, where it bulged it out and broke-- cracked it further.
Q A crack clear through?
A Yes, and you can see where a
bolt, or something, a bigger chunk of lead hit it and it bulged it right out.
Q Where did you see this first? (indicating funnel shaped implement)
A I saw that among a lot of stuff brought from Lingg's room.
Q By the officers?
A Yes sir,
Q What did you do with it after that?
A I kept well guard of it. I had it in a box right along with the other stuff.
Q Kept it in your own possession?
A Yes sir.
Q Under your own lock and key?
A Yes sir. Everything in my office was locked up.
Q And no one had access to them but yourself.
A No sir.
Q What did you do with this afterwards-- hand it to any person?
A I did not. It is the officer.
Q Who was it given to?-- But this is the one that you had there --you know that, do you?
A Yes sri.
Q What is this hole? (indicating a bomb)
MR. BLACK: If he knows anything about it.
MR. INGHAM: Well, if you know.
A No sir, no; I didn't see it done.
Q Did you cut the piece out of this bomb (indicating)?
A I did.
Q What did you do with that?
A The doctor has got it,
Prof. Haynes has got a piece and Prof. Patten.
Q Which bomb is that?
A That one there (indicating), and another off of that one-- they got some of that bomb from the inside.
Q Some of this one (indicating)?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, I wish you would point out the ones from which they obtained samples?
A I would have to come over there.
Q That is what I want you to do. Pick out everything now from which you gave the professors samples.
A Here they are (selects four bombs from a box).
Q Now, where did these four come from?
MR. BLACK: Does he know anything about that?
MR INGHAM: Where did you get them from?
A I got two from officer Hoffman; I got one from this fireman, Miller. And one from officer-- either Lowenstein or Shuttler.
Q Now, I wish you would pick out the pieces of metal, or the metal from which you gave peices to Prof. Haynes,.
A Out of this box here (indicating). The doctors got some off of this (indicating) a piece of metal).
Q By doctor, who do you mean?
A Prof. Haynes and Patten got some off of this (another piece of metal); got some off of that. (indicating), and got some off of that (another piece of metal).
Q Anything else?
A And then some lead, and water pipe.
Q Some of these old water- pipes in the box?
A Yes sir.
Q From whom did you get those things?
A They were brought in by officer Lowenstein.
Q From whom did you get this (indicating an article resembling a tin fruit can).
A I got that from officer Whalen-- I sent him after that.
Q How many of these did you get?
A I got four of them.
Q Now, I will ask you again how many bombs all together, dynamite bombs, have been brought into you from any part of this city since the 4th of May?
THE COURT: I do not think it will do until the officers themselves have first told where the bombs came from.
MR INGHAM: Can you enumerate the number that you have?
A Pretty much.
THE COURT: No; I do not think that is admissible until the officers who did bring them tell where they got them.
MR. INGHAM: Well, it is begining at the wrong end, perhaps now.
Q Is this can in the condition it was when it first came into your possession?
A No sir.
Q What is the difference?
A There was some liquid in it-- it was full of liquid.
Q Full of liquid?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know what the liquid was?
A Simply something that smells strong.
Q Have you ever experimented with any of these.
A No sir. I had one experimented with.
Q Was it in your presence?
A Yes sir. I have got an officer here that will swear to that.
Q Now, there are some things in regard to those conversations I wish to call your attention to. Did Lingg say anything to you about the purpose for which he was making the bombs?
A I answered that. He said that the police would come with their gatling guns and the militia, and that he would fight them with bombs.
Q Do you remember whether anything was said about revolution or not?
A And there would be very likely be revolution through this working men's trouble. Further more about Lingg, I forgot, as we are telling now, there was a satchel brought from Neff's place; Mr. Theilen was present. --The satchel it was filled with them bombs, and I asked Lingg if he brought that satchel there. He said he saw a satchel. I described it to him. He said, "Yes, that was the satchel he saw". I asked him what became of it; he says he didn't know. He saw it stand there when he left; and that was the last he saw of it.
Q Did he say anything about where he saw it standing?
A It was in Neff's place.
Q Did he say whereabouts in the place
A Where-- the particular place I did not ask him. That is 58 Clybourne Avenue.
Q Did you have any talk with him about the moulds for making bombs-- about who made the moulds?
A I asked him where he got the moulds to make these bombs.
He said he made them himself; he made them of clay. And I asked him how often they could be used to cast in; he says only about twice, then they would crackle to pieces.
Q Did you ask him anything about the Revenge Circular?
A Yes. He said he saw that on the West side; I believe 71 West Lake street.
Q Did he say anything about his personal appearance, his hair or his whiskers?
A Yes. When we had a picture of him, I had several of them struck off to be sent off, and there is where he had the light chin whiskers and mustache, and when he was brought in-- and also the pictures showed he had quite a lot of hair-- when he was brought in his hair was cut pretty short, and he was clean shaved. I asked him when he done that. He said on or about the 7th of May.
Q Did you ask him anything about whether anybody had been in his room on the 4th day of May?
A Or his rooms?
A I did.
Q What did he say about that?
A That is what I learned
--there were other parties, and I asked him if he could tell me who they were. I had learned some of their names, and I wanted to know all of them. He said there had been several persons there that afternoon, probably six or more, and among other persons was the two Lehmans, so far as he knew.
Q He said there were six or more there?
(Recess until 2 P.M.)
2 O'clock P.M. Thursday, July 29, 1886.
On the stand; Direct examination resumed by Mr. Ingham;
Q Did you experiment any with fuse?
A I did.
Q As to the length of time it takes it to work?
A Pretty much.
Q What did you find out about that?
A I cut a fuse, well, about four inches long and set them on fire, and from the time when they spit out-- that is the time they struck the cap within, or struck against this, count just about four, -- one, two, three, four,. That is about the time they spit out on the other end and go off.
Q That fuse was about four inches long, you say?
A About three or four.
Q Did you experiment with dynamite cartridges?
A I did, Yes sir. I went to a wholesale house and got some of these, not quite as large as that, but it was as long (indicating),
and I drilled a hole in this end here about an inch and a half deep, right in the center and I took one of those caps, those long caps here, percussion caps, and shoved one in and put a fuse on and exploded. I had it stand right free up in the air on a stone, the stone weighing about twenty or thirty pounds and when it went off it broke the stone all up, and I put it right in the center of a lot of little shrubs and brushes about as high as that (indicating), reeds and things and it took around about four feet each way, all around-- it broke everything all up and tore the leaves off, but that is the concussion done that. This of course, all goes in smoke.
MR. SALOMON: What do you mean by "this"?
A I mean the paper and all that. There is nothing to be found of it after.
MR. SALOMON: As this evidence does not seem to be on what we consider the point in issue, we move to exclude it.
Motion overruled and exception by defendants.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY
Q What Lingg said to you, Captain, was this, substantially was it not-- if not in words, in substance, that the time was coming when there would be a contest between the labor classes on one side and the police and the militia with their gatling guns on the other, and that he was making these bombs to be used when that time came?
A That is about it, but he said that the time was there now, with these working troubles.
Q Did he say anything about any particular time that he was going to use them-- that is, the date?
A No sir, no date, no sir.
Q You never drew from him the fact that he intended to go to the Haymarket meeting, or anything of that kind, on that occasion?
A No. He said he wasn't there. He said he was on Larrabee street.
Q He told you he was on Larrabee street and from investigation that you made you found that it was true?
A He was on Larrabee street.
Q That he was in fact on Larrabee street, and that is how far from the Haymarket?
A Oh, I should judge it is about from the north-- Larrabee street is a long street, you understand it-- well, about two miles, along that.
Q Yes, where he was?
A From the neighborhood on or about the station house where he was, I take it from there to Haymarket-- I think it was about two miles.
Q Two miles from the Haymarket?
A I should judge, so, yes.
Q And you say that Engle complained of the darkness of his cell and said "What use have I got for flowers"?
A That is what he said.
Q Well, that is about what you thought, too didn't you?
He didn't have much use for flowers down there?
A We don't furnish anybody with flowers no.
Q Well, you furnished them with the necessaries of life, of course?
A Yes sir, they get to eat and drink and are taken care of as prisoners.
Q And he told you that he was at home also the night of the Haymarket meeting when you questioned him as to his whereabouts?
A He did.
Q You have also discovered from inquity, have you not, that that was so.?
A We have found out also that he was at the Haymarket.
Q But early in the evening he was at the Haymarket?
A Yes sir. The latest I traced Engle at the Haymarket was nine o'clock.
Q And at the time of the explosion of the bomb and from before that and after he was at home?
A I could not learn where he was except what he told me himself.
Q Well, you were not able to trace him at the Haymarket anywheres near the time of the explosion of the bomb?
A No sir, I did not; I could not.
Q Now, these expements that you have made with dynamite, as I understand you, have been made for your own information, in the various ways?
A I have made it so I could testify on the stuff Lingg called dynamite; I could trace it right back onto Lingg,
to say that it was exploded. That is what I did it for, and especialy that round bomb, that what was one of his, and a bomb of that size had been thrown at the Haymarket; I wanted to see the effects of it.
Q Now, these bombs that you have manufactured, you had them made so as to secure both ends, having them fast with a screw?
A Yes sir, that is about the safest way.
Q Now, did you see him have any that screwed that way?
A No, I did not see that.
Q You were frequently plying these prisoners, of course with inquiries to try to get from them a confession or a statement?
A I have every man when they come in--- every man that is brought in there brought in some information by some one.
Q Oh, well, I say you did cross- examine them?
A I did when they came in, Yes sir.
Q Now, you have even gone in at midnight after Mr. Lingg was asleep and woke him up out of his sleep and interrogated him, haven't you?
Q Yes sir?
A No sir, I dont' think I did that after midnight.
Q Do you remember that you did not?
A I don't think I did. Even if I did I had a right to.
Q I am not questioning your right now, but what is your recollection of doing it-- waking him up in the night after he had been a sleep and questioning him then?
A Well, I I did, I did it, that is all.
Q You are not sure whether you did or did not?
Q I ain't sure of it.
Q Well, now as a matter of fact do you know anything about a couple of men-- you are at the head of the detective service, are you not, Captain?
A No sir, I am not, the detective force is on the South side, and I work with my own men.
Q Well, you are at the head of the detective force of your own station?
A Yes sir, O, yes.
Q Because you are at the head of the whole department, both of the detective department and the general police department?
A That is over here on this Side of the river.
Q Well, they are the station that you have charge of. You say you have there. Now, do you know anything of a couple of detective going to Mr. Lingg's cell and exhibiting to him a rope and conversing with themselves in his hearing and upon the question of hanging him?
A I haven't heard of it. Another thing I don't think it has been done.
Q You haven't seen nor you haven't heard it?
A No sir. I don't do business that kind of a way.
Q Well, you do not perhaps, no, but you do not deny but what you may have woke him up that night and interrogated him in the middle of the night?
A I did not and I don't know of anybody else did.
Q You never took Mr. Lingg before any Magistrate for examination?
A I did not, sir.
Q How long was he there before he was indicted by the Grand Jury?
A I think that the Grand Jury was in session on about the time he was arrested.
Q How long?
A Well, he may have been in the station probably a week, probably more. I did not put down just when he was released from me over here.
Q Was there every any complaint lodged against Mr. Lingg to your knowledge?
A No information, no complaint lodged against him at your station.
MR GRINELL: What do you mean by that?
THE WITNESS: I want to know that.
MR FOSTER: Well, at your station no complaint was lodged against him?
A What kind of compliant?
Q Any kind of compliant?
A Before or after this trouble?
Q No, I mean after the 4th while you had him under arrest?
A N more that what other men had told on him.
Q Did you have any complaint? Was there any papers of any criminal charge-- a complaint of any criminal charge against him?
A On our records, no sir.
Q Not anything at all? (No answer)
RE- DIRECT EXAMINATION BY
Q Did you give a sample of some of these bombs to officer Whalen to be taken to Prof. Haynes'
A I did.
Q I wish you would identify that bomb. I wish you would mark on each box so that we can bear it in mind.
A This bomb and that bomb and a piece out of this; this piece here (witness indicates the different bombs and pieces).
MR. GRINELL: Just mark those "H" there. Those are the ones that Whalen carried over there. (witness marks the bombs as requested).
Mr INGHAM: This one that you have marked with "Haynes" and "Whalen", and a piece out of this you gave to officer Whalen?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, the one that you have marked "Haynes and whalen" did you give a piece of that to Whalen also?
A Yes sir, to take over there.
Q And a peice from the other bombs?
A That is on the inside.
Q And you say Professor Haynes got those in your presence?
A Yes sir.
Q And he took them from the bombs himself?
A Yes sir.
Q You have given some of the witnesses, or the families of
some of the witnesses who have testified in this case, money, have you not?
A I did.
Q Explain to the jury about that? Explain how you came to do it?
Objected to as not proper rebutting evidence; objection sustained.