Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross and re-Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Attended the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 303), anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.K 301), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 302), advocating revolution (vol.K 307), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.K 300), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 291), eight-hour movement (vol.K 290), (vol.K 308), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.K 304), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.K 311), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.K 311), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.K 305), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.K 305), Spies' speech at Haymarket (vol.K 287), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.K 298), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.K 301).
Testimony of G. P. English, 1886 July 27.
Volume K, 285-311, 27 p.
English, G. P.
Reporter, Chicago Tribune.
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[Image, Volume K, Page 285]
Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross and re-Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.
Attended the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 303), anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.K 301), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 302), advocating revolution (vol.K 307), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.K 300), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 291), eight-hour movement (vol.K 290), (vol.K 308), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.K 304), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.K 311), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.K 311), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.K 305), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.K 305), Spies' speech at Haymarket (vol.K 287), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.K 298), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.K 301).
G. P. ENGLISH,
a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:
Q. What is your name?
Q. You are a reporter for the Tribune?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And have been for a good many years?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long?
A. Seventeen or eighteen.
Q. You are a shorthand reporter too?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you attend the Haymarket meeting?
A. I did.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. About half past seven.
Q. That was on the 4th of May?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What did you do when you got there -- you got there about half past seven?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What did you see and hear?
A. I didn't see anything. I looked for a meeting and didn't find it.
Q. Where did you go to look?
A. Well, I went all around to Haymarket square.
Q. From Desplaines to Halsted?
A. From Desplaines to Halsted.
Q. Did you see any people on the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many?
A. Well, a few.
Q. Did you go clear up to Halsted?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see any of the defendants there?
A. No sir, not at that time.
Q. You came back did you to Desplaines Street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What time did you go back there?
A. Oh, I suppose it took me perhaps ten minutes to walk up and down; but I walked very slowly.
Q. What happened then when you walked back to Desplaines and Randolph?
A. I didn't see anything and went off to the station.
Q. Well, what did you do then?
A. I had to wait a little while.
Q. When you got back -- how long were you at the station -- when you got back to the station?
A. Oh, I was there perhaps five minutes or so.
Q. And came back to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph?
A. I went down and came back to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph and leaned up against a lamp post there a little while. There were more people coming all the time. Then I walked west on Randolph Street and I met a couple of other reporters; then we talked a little while and then I saw Mayor Harrison and I started for him to interview him, and he got ahead of me, and I followed him into the station and he went into the office. There was a number of officers there, lieutenants and captains, I suppose and I didn't get a chance at him. And I stayed in there -- oh, I don't know, ten or fifteen minutes perhaps. I was talking to somebody and he
said the Mayor had gone out, and I went right out and I caught up with him just a little west of the alley, and he went along over pretty near half way across Randolph Street, and then he came back, but I couldn't get a chance to talk to him. And I waited around for a little while, and then I saw somebody -- some people going over north on Desplaines, beyond Randolph. I thought perhaps that was where the meeting was going on, and I went over, and it turned out that it was.
MR. BLACK: A little louder, please.
A. I went over there and in a little while Mr. Spies got upon the wagon and motioned with his hands that way (showing)/ And somebody said, "Are you going to begin?" and he said, "Yes, all right". And then he said that Mr. Fielden and Mr. Parsons were to make a speech but they hadn't come. And then Mr. Spies got down off of the wagon and went over towards Randolph Street. He was gone perhaps five or ten minutes, and he came back, and as he passed me I asked him if Mr. Parsons was going to speak. I understood him to say "Yes". Then he got up on the platform -- got up on the wagon, or whatever it was, I didn't see distinctly, and he called the meeting to order.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. What did he say when he did that, as you say, Mr. English.
A. "Gentlemen, please come to order."
Q. How far were you from the wagon?
A. Oh, I was about
fifteen feet, I guess, or so, or twenty feet.
Q. Did you take shorthand notes of his speech?
A. I did, as much as I could.
Q. Have you got them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where were you taking them?
A. I took them in my overcoat pocket.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Oh, I was standing up and had a note book in my pocket and a short pencil.
Q. Had a note book in your pocket?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In your overcoat pocket?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Why did you take them that way?
Question objected to.
Q. Well, will you read from your notes?
MR. BLACK: We object to his reading from his notes. He may read off from them personally, for the purpose of the refreshing of his recollection; but we object to his reading them out loud.
THE COURT: Read all that he said, so far as you can, without the aid of your notes.
A. Well, I can tell what I took from my reports of the spee speeches. I can't recollect what he said.
MR. FOSTER: Your Honor said he may read them?
THE COURT: I did not mean that. If he took shorthand notes and if he knows they are correct.
A. They are correct.
Q. And are decipherable?
A. Yes sir.
THE COURT: If he can't remember the words without his notes then he can read from his notes.
A. Some of them I can read, some I can't.
MR. BLACK: That is a good reason why he shouldn't read them at all.
THE COURT: Well, so much of them as you can read, do you know whether they are correct or not?
A. I think they are.
THE COURT: Well, that portion then is competent.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. Well, proceed Mr. English.
A. Well, before this, I should state, that when Mr. Spies was first on the wagon --
MR. BLACK: (Interrupting) A little louder Mr. English.
A. When Mr. Spies was first on the wagon, I think, or it might have been when he came back, somebody in the crowd suggested that the meeting should go over in the Haymarket; but Mr. Spies said no, that the crowd would interfere with the street cars. Now, the first I have here is Spies: "Please come to order, gentlemen. Gentlemen and fellow workmen --"
MR. FOSTER: (Interrupting) Well, does the court say he can read everything? Do we understand that your Honor rules that
he can read from his memorandum?
THE COURT: Oh, yes. That identical question has been passed upon by the Supreme Court: that if a stenographer makes notes, which, so far as they go, he can say -- he testifies are correct -- which he intended to have correct at the time, and which he now believes are correct, then, if he has forgotten, himself the language he may read from his notes.
MR. BLACK: Well, we do not know if he has forgotten the language, if your Honor please.
MR. GRINNELL: He simply said he didn't recollect; he didn't remember; that he reported so many speeches that it would be hard work for him to remember independently what any one said.
MR. BLAC: Well, we except to the ruling.
THE WITNESS: He said: "Gentlemen and fellow workingmen--"
MR. FOSTER: Who is this now, Spies?
A. This is Spies. "Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden will be here in a very short time to address you. I will say, however, first, this meeting was called for the purpose of discussing the general situation of the eight hour strike, and the events which have taken place during the last forty-eight hours. It seems to have been the opinion of the authorities, that this meeting has been called for the purpose of raising a little row and disturbance. This however, was not the intention of the committee that called the meeting. The committee that called the meeting wanted to tell you certain facts of which you are probably aware. The
capitalistic press has been misleading -- misrepresenting the cause of labor for the last two weeks, so much so"-- then there is something that is unintelligible that I can't read at all. Some of it went off on the side of my pocket.
MR. FOSTER: You haven't got your pocket, have you?
A. Well I didn't have much room in my coat pocket. The next is: "Whenever strikes have taken place; whenever people have been driven to violence by the oppression of their" -- then there is something unintelligible. And the next I have is: "Then the police" -- then there is three or four words of that that is unintelligible. Then there were cheers. "But I want to tell you gentlemen, that these acts of violence are the natural outcome of the degradation and the oppression to which working people are subjected. I was addressing a meeting of ten thousand wage workers yesterday afternoon in the neighborhood of McComick's. They didn't want me to speak. The most of them were good church going people. They didn't want me to speak because I was a socialist. They wanted to tear me down from the cars, but I spoke to them and told them that they must stick together" -- Then there is some more that is unintelligible. and some more, there is one, eight or ten words on a page. The next I have, is "And he would have to submit to them if they would stick together." There is only eight or ten words on a page. The next I have is: "They were anarchists -- they were not anarchists, but good church going people" Then the next, "The capitalistic press" -- what he said I
can't make out. "They were good christians." Then the patrol wagons came and blood was shed. Then a boy or some one in the crowd said: "Shame on them". And the next thing said is, "Throwing stones at the factory; most harmless sport." Then some one in the crowd -- then Spies said: "What did the police do?" And some one in the crowd said, "Murdered them". Then he went on: "they only came to the meeting there as if attending church." Then there is some more that is unintelligible. The next I have is: "Such things tell you of the agitation" I couldn't tell them that. Then there is something more that is unintelligible. The next I have is: "Couldn't help themselves any more. It was then they resorted to violence." The next I have: "Before you starve" -- No connection whatever. And the next, "This fight that is going on now is simply a struggle for the existence of the oppressed classes." Then I have some more here that is unintelligible. That is the last that I can get out. At this time my pocket was full of paper; it was all rumpled up, and I thought that I had got to the end of this note book. That is, as my pocket got fuller and fuller of paper, my notes got more unintelligible, because I didn't have room enough to move my hand in, and the notes were away up here (showing), and I evidently made some in my pocket: Then I moved around, and the meeting seemed to be orderly, and I took another position
in the face of the speaker, and I took out my paper and reported openly during all the rest of the meeting, until I saw the police come and then I went on the sidewalk.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. Well, what report have you then?
A. Only what is in my paper. These notes were first made on the ordinary paper that reporters use. I put them on my desk when I came there in the morning about half past one, and I had no idea that I was going to be called as a witness, but Mr. Patterson, I think it was the night after, asked me where they were, and said they might be important; and I looked for them, and they told me they were gone; they supposed the janitor took them. So I have no further information except what is in the paper.
Q. Did you write out from your notes that which appeared in the Tribune the next day?
A. Only part of it.
Q. As to Parson's speech?
A. As to Parson's and Spies and Fielden.
Q. Now you may state -- if you have no other way than that that appeared in the Tribune, as taken from your notes, you may state what Parsons said?
A. Well, this is not all of the speeches.
Q. I wish further, first, before we proceed to Parsons, can you give me from your memory, or from recollection, without the paper, which would refresh your memory, what Spies said
other than that which you have from your original notes?
A. I can read it.
Q. Very well. Read it. Refresh your memory as to what he said further -- what Spies said further than that which you have from your notes -- your original notes. I understand, any matters that appeared in print were written out at night from your original notes?
A. Yes sir, so far as it goes.
Q. From your notes and from memory.
A. Yes sir, but all of it is not here. What is given here of Parsons he could say in perhaps three or four minutes, but he spoke perhaps three quarters of an hour.
Q. But what is there was said by these speakers?
A. With the exception that the pronouns and the verbs are changed.
Q. Explain to the jury how that is done.
A. In making an abstract of a speech, when a man says, "I will do this", the custom is to say, He did that -- to put it in the past tense. When a man says, "I will do it", they put it in the abstract, "he would do it." It is simply the pronouns and the verbs are changed.
Q. Now you may state other than that what -- state what there was in Spies' speech, give it to us in detail fully what you have written or what was transcribed by you from your notes, to the jury, or explain what occurred there.
THE COURT: I don't quite understand from the witness --
Q. Is this verbatim so far as it goes?
A. Yes, so far as it goes except the pronouns and the verbs are changed.
Q. Except the pronouns and the verbs and the moods are changed?
A. Yes sir.
MR. BLAC: It is verbatim with the exception that it is not.
THE COURT: Except he is speaking in the third person.
A. Except that he is speaking in the third person.
MR. BLACK: We make our objection.
THE COURT: Q. Now, can you tell from memory, and the notes - give us the words that the speakers used. That is, knowing the meaning, after changing your moods and tenses and pronouns, can you go back again and read off and repeat the original of the words so far as you have got them?
A. I think so.
Q. Well then go on and do it.
THE COURT: I understood the witness to say that so far as he does read he reads what Parsons said.
MR. FOSTER: Verbatim?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FOSTER: He don't mean that.
THE COURT: Let me hear that again.
THE WITNESS: After I got back to the office my instructions
were to write out the most incendiary part of the speeches. I went right through my notes, and so far as it goes, they were transcribed from my notes, with the exception of the changing of the verbs and the pronouns. That is I took this from my notes, and changed the verbs and the pronouns as I went along.
Q. And by changing back again it becomes verbatim, does it?
A. Yes, sir; it must be.
Q. But only of a small portion of it?
A. Only a small portion.
MR. BLACK: The most incendiary part.
MR. FOSTER: The part in which he designates "Hell for a minute," in the report.
A. I don't know anything about that, I didn't write that.
THE COURT: Then repeat as near as you can what Parsons or Spies said.
MR. GRINNELL: Give that part of Spies which you have not given, if you can; what his words were, making the changes.
A. (Reads) "It was said that I inspired the attack on McCormick's. That is a lie. The fight is going on. Now is the chance to strike for the existence of the oppressed classes. The oppressors want us to be content. They will kil us. The thought of liberty which inspired your sires to fight for their freedom ought to animate you to-day. The day is
not far distant when we will resort to hanging these men." (Applause and cries of, "Hang them now.") "Mc. Cormick is the man who created the row Monday, and he must be held responsible for the murder of our brothers. (Cries of, "Hang him") "Don't make any threats; they are of no avail. When ever you get ready to do something do it and don't make any threats beforehand. There are in the city to-day between forty and fifty thousand men locked out because they refuse to obey the supreme will or dictation of a small number of men. The families of twenty-five or thirty thousand men are starving because their husbands and fathers are not men enough to withstand and resist the dictation of a few thieves on a grand scale, to put out of the power of a few men to say whether they should work or not? Would they place their lives, their happiness, everything out of the arbitrary power of a few rascals."
MR. BLACK: Wait a minute, Mr. English. Aren't you forgetting your moods and tenses now? "Would they place their lives," is not precisely like a speaker would speak to an audience.
A. Well, shall we put it out of the power of a few men to say whether you shall work or not. You place your lives, your happiness, everything out of the arbitrary power of a few rascals who have been raised in idleness and luxury upon the
fruits of your labor. Will you stand that?" (Cries of, "No") The press say we are Bohemians, Poles, Russians, Germans -- that there are no Americans among us. That is a lie. Every honest American is with us. Those who are not are unworthy of their traditions and their fore-fathers."
Q. Is that all you have got of Spies besides that which you have read?
A. That is all of Spies.
Q. Now, let us have what Parsons said. Did you have more of Spies that wasn't written out?
A. Yes, sir, I think I did. Spies I think spoke fifteen or twenty minutes, and this wouldn't represent more than five or six perhaps. That is, in actual talking. Well, now here is an abstract of Parsons, and I can't give the exact language when he first started off.
Q. Well, we will get back to that in a minute. You may tell us, Mr. English, in your own way, when he first started off in his speech. What was his first preliminary remark when he started off?
A. I can't tell you about that. It was about the working men, that the remedy for their wrongs was in socialism.
Q. Well, now tell us what you have got exact.
A. He said, without them they would soon become Chinamen. He said, "It is time to raise a note of warning. There is nothing in the eight hour movement to excite the capitalist."
MR. FOSTER: Didn't he say anything about Chinamen before that?
A. Well, I said that. "Do you know that the military are under arms, and a gatling gun is ready to mow you down. Was this Germany or Russia or Spain."
MR. ZEISLER: Is this.
A. Is this. "Is this Germany, Russia or Spain". (A voice, "It looks like it") "Whenever you make a demand for eight hours pay, and increase of pay, the militia and the deputy sheriff and the Pinkerton men are called out and you are shot and clubbed and murdered in the streets. I am not here for the purpose of inciting anybody but to speak out, to tell the facts as they exist, even though it shall cost me my life before morning." Then he went on to tell about Cincinnati.
MR. FOSTER: Well, go right along.
A. The Cincinnati demonstration.
Q. Well, we want it.
A. And about the rifle guard being needed.
Q. Why don't you go right along?
A. Well, that is the abstract here.
MR. INGHAM: You can't swear what the abstract is as to what he said.
THE COURT:Q. Is that all.
A. No sir, there is another part of it here. "It behooves you, as you love your wife and children, if you don't want to see them perish with hunger, killed or cut down like dogs on the street, Americans, in the
interest of your liberty and your independence, to arm, arm yourselves." There I think is an error. My recollection is that he said, "If you wouldn't be killed or cut down like dogs in the street, Americans, in the interest of your liberty and your independence to arm, to arm." (Applause and cries of "We will do it. We are ready now".) "You are not." Then the rest of it is the wind-up.
MR. SALOMON:Q. Parsons replied, "You are not."
A. Yes sir he said, "You are not". Somebody in the crowd said, "We are ready now", and Parsons replied and said, "You are not."
MR. GRINNELL:Q. Well, what else do you remember, Mr. English?
A. Oh, he talked for a long while about, out of every dollar the working men got fifteen cents and the capitalists or employers, got eighty-five cents. And he said he was a Knight of Lanor, a socialist, and a member of the Typographical Union -- Oh, I don't know, he talked a long while.
Q. Have you any more of his speeches?
A. No more of his, no sir.
Q. What was his manner of saying it, when he cried, "To arms, to arms".
A. Well, just about as he had been talking. I didn't notice any difference in him.
Q. How was he talking?
A. His ordinary talk.
Q. Well, I don't know what that is?
A. Well, he was actually -- he was a good talker.
Q. Now, what was the next speaker?
Q. What did you get of Fielden?
A. Well, he said -- the first I have of his written out was: "There are premonitions of danger. All knew. The press say the anarchists will sneak away; we are not going to. If we continue to be robbed it will not be long before we will be murdered. There is no security for the working classes under the present social system. A few individuals control the means of living and hold the working men in a vise. Everybody does not know that. Those who know it are tired of it, and know the others will get tired of it too. They are determined to end it and will end it, and there is no power in the land that will prevent them. Congressman Foran said, `The laborer can get nothing from legislation'. He also said that, The laborers can get some relief from their present condition when the rich man knew it was unsafe for him to live in a community where there were dissatisfied working men; for they would solve the labor problem. I don't know whether you are democrats or republicans, but whichever you are, you worship at the shrine of rebels. John Brown, Jefferson, Patrick Henry and Hopkins said to the people, `The law is your enemy. We are rebels against it. The law is only framed for those that are your enslavers'. (A voice, "That is true.") Men in their blind rage attacked McCormick's factory, and were shot down
by the law in cold blood in the city of Chicago, in the protection of property. Those men were going to do some damage to a certain person's interest, who was a large property owner, therefore, the law came to his defense. And when McCormick undertook to do some injury to the interest of those who had no property, the law also came to his defense and not to the working man's defense when he, Mr. McCormick attacked him and his living." (Cries of, "No.") There is a difference. The law makes no distinctions. A million men own all the property in this country. The law has no use for the other fifty-four million." (A voice "Right enough.") "You have nothing more to do with the law except to lay hands on it and throttle it until it makes its last kick. It turns your brothers out on the way side and has degraded them until they have lost the last vestige of humanity, and they are mere things and animals. Keep your eye upon it. Throttle it. Kill it. Stop it. Do everything you can to wound it -- to impede its progress" Now, here, this word, "Stop it" must be "Stab it". "Stab it. Do everything you can to wound it -- to impede its progress. Remember, before trusting them to do anything for yourself, prepare to do it for yourself. Don't turn over your business to anybody else. No man deserves anything unless he is man enough to make an effort to lift himself from oppression." Then there was an interruption
there on account of the storm.
Q. What was that interruption?
A. Storm clouds. Everybody started to go away.
Q. Anything said at that time?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Parsons suggested that they adjourn over to Zepf's Hall.
Q. Did Fielden say anything?
A. Mr. Fielden said, "No, the people were trying to get information, and he would go on."
Q. He would finish there.
A. He would finish what there was then. "Is it not a fact that we have no choice as to our existence, for we can't dictate what our labor is worth. He that has to obey the will of any is a slave. Can we do anything except by a conciliatory armed resistance."
Q. Is that all?
A. No sir, I have a little more.
Q. Go ahead.
A. "Socialists are not going to declare war; but I tell you war has been declared upon us; and I ask you to get hold of anything that will help to resist the onslaught of the enemy and the usurper. The skirmish lines have met. People have been shot. Men, women and children have not been spared by the capitalists, and minions of private capital. It had no mercy; so ought you. You are called upon to defend yourselves, your lives, your future. What matters it whether you kill yourselves with work to get a little relief, or die on the battle field resisting the enemy. What is the difference? Any animal, however loathsome, will resist when
stepped upon. Are men less than snails or worms? I have some resistance in me? I know that you have too. You have been robbed and you will be starved into a worse condition." That is all I have.
Q. That is all you have?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Well, at that time some one alongside of me asked me if the police were not coming. I was facing this way (showing). Fielden was over there (showing), and that was down Desplaines Street (showing).
Q. Facing which way. Was it north, south, east or west?
Q. You were facing Northeast?
Q. Somebody told you that the police were coming?
A. No, he asked me if they were coming. I looked down the street and I saw a file of police about the middle of Randolph Street. As soon as I saw the police I put my paper in my pocket and ran right over on the southwest corner.
Q. Of what?
A. Of Randolph and Desplaines.
Q. When you got to the southwest corner of Randolph and Desplaines, where was the front line of police?
A. They were coming across the street.
Q. Coming across what street?
A. They hadn't got across the street; they were coming across Randolph. Just about the time I reached the side walk the front rank got to the southwest
corner of Randolph and Desplaines.
MR. BLACK: Wait a minute. Does Mr. English mean the southwest corner or not?
A. The northwest I mean.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. The northwest corner of Randolph and Desplaines?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Well, I stood there until the police -- some of the police marched by, and the first thing I knew I heard an explosion. I didn't know what it was. And the next thing there was a volley of fifteen or twenty or thirty shots and I thought it was about time to leave, so I skinned down Randolph Street. While I was running I heard a great lot of shots and somebody tumbled right in front of me; but I didn't stop to see whether he was hurt.
Q. Do you know who shot first?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. You didn't stay to see.
A. No sir, I didn't stay to see.
Q. What was the temper of the crowd that night?
A. Just an ordinary meeting. I didn't pay any attention except to these remarks that were made by the people occasionally in the audience.
By Mr. Foster.
Q. It was what you call a peaceable and quiet meeting, was it not, for an out-door meeting?
A. I should think so, yes.
Q. There was no great turbulence that you observed there?
A. I didn't see any.
Q. And you were there all the time?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You had first to take your scratch notes the best way you could, in your pocket; and then, because of the quietness of the meeting you deliberately faced them right up and took them legitimately?
A. Yes sir, I stood there, I guess, over an hour and a quarter perhaps.
Q. Were you accustomed to hear them speak for a year or two or three years back?
A. Yes sir, I had heard them speak.
Q. Well, now was there any difference? In what respect were those speeches different from what they had been making for five or six years?
A. Well, I thought they were a little milder.
Q. All set speeches; about the same thing?
A. Yes, about the same thing.
Q. Now, hadn't you heard Parsons get off his mathematical problems before, saying about the same thing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Talking about the laboring men; you have heard Parsons talk about the fifteen per cent. that the laboring man made, and that they were on a still hunt for the other eightyfive,
A. Well, I have heard him make the same kind of speeches.
Q. On that point?
A. Yes, pretty much the same thing.
Q. They were always talking about striking the enemy, and the only way of regulating their rights was by force?
A. Yes, by force.
Q. The same kind of force that they had been talking about for a half dozen years?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You say Parsons said -- when the crowd said -- "We are ready to do it now" -- or was it Spies?
A No, that was Parsons.
Q. Parsons said -- somebody in the crowd said, "We are ready to do it now." That is to resist open war.
A. Yes sir.
Q. And he says, "You are not"?
A. He says, "You are not".
Q. Now then, there is a portion here of what Mr. Parsons said that I think you didn't read. Didn't Mr. Parsons on that occasion say: "No, you are not ready now;" and began to talk of civilization as founded upon force. And began to talk about the legal effect, and that it had to be undermined by force?
A. Yes, that was sometime after that. He said that civilization was founded on force and they could only overturn it by force; but not at that time.
Q. You heard him say that for at least five or six years?
A. Yes sir, substantially that.
Q. You didn't hear any of them saying, or advising, that they were going to use force that night?
A. No sir.
Q. Parsons said in so many words that they were not ready? Parsons said that and neither Fielden or Spies said that they were ready?
A. I didn't understand them to say so.
Q. But Spies did say that they shouldn't make any threats?
A. Yes sir.
Q. He said that in response to a man that raised up from the audience?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And said in addition to that -- prefaced his remark by the statement that, "this is not a meeting to excite you."
A. No sir, he didn't say that.
Q. What was it?
A. He said that, the authorities seemed to have the impression was called for the purpose of raising a little row and disturbance, but that wasn't the purpose of the committee that called the meeting it was for the purpose of discussing the general situation of the eight hour strike, and what had occurred in the city for the last forty-eight hours.
Q. He said that it was not called for the purpose of raising a disturbance, substantially at that time?
A. That is what he said.
Q. You said that Parsons suggested when the cloud came over them, they had better adjourn to Zepf's Hall?
A. Yes, sir that is what I have here; and if he said different I would
have it, because I have known Mr. Parsons for a number of years.
Q. Now, don't you know as a matter of fact that upon Parsons suggestion being defeated, that he withdrew from the wagon and went to Zepf's Hall?
A. I don't know anything about that. I didn't see him afterwards.
Q. Did you see Mrs. Parsons on the wagon at that time?
A. No sir. I didn't see her at all.
Q. Didn't see her at all.
A. No sir.
Q. Now, you say Mr. Fielden said in his speech that "The socialists are not going to declare war, but I say to you that war has been declared upon them?"
A. Yes sir.
Q. And taking that meeting as a whole, and every speech as a whole of both Spies and Parsons and Fielden, you say that they were more conciliatory, more mild, and less inflammatory than they had been accustomed to deliver for years?
A. Well, I have heard more inflammatory speeches.
Q. When you went to the Tribune office, you were instructed by the person over you to merely cut out parts of the speeches and print just what was the most inflammatory?
A. No, not at that time. Before I went to the meeting my instructions were to take only the most incendiary parts of the speeches.
Q. Yes, those are the words, "The most incendiary parts". So the idea was to have the incendiary language without having
the conciliatory accompaniments?
A. Oh, well, enough of it to show the connection.
Q. Now, didn't Mr. Parsons -- don't you remember that Mr. Parsons said, in speaking of the Cincinnati meeting, that he had been at Cincinnati only the Sunday before and had just arrived home that day?
A. Yes, I think he said that.
Q. You remember of his stating that in his speech?
A. I remember I don't know about on Sunday. I think he said he had been in Cincinnati; had seen the procession, and told about it.
Q. Didn't he say that he had just returned home that day?
A. I don't recollect that.
Q. You don't remember?
A. No sir.
MR. FOSTER: That is all.
By Mr. Grinnell.
Q. Mr. English, Mr. Foster has used the expression that his speeches were mild -- these speeches were mild, and among other words, he has used the word "conciliatory".
A. Oh mildly conciliatory.
By Mr. Foster.
Q. Just one question more. Mr. English did you hear Captain
Ward's announcement to the crowd to disperse?
A. Well, I don't know whether it was Ward or Bonfield.
Q. Well, you heard the words?
A. I heard the words as I understood them.
Q. How near were you at the time?
A. I was on the northwest corner.
Q. You could hear distinctly?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you could hear what Mr. Fielden said as you walked away?
A. Well, I didn't pay any attention to that as I left.
Q. Well, did you hear Mr. Fielden say any such words as these, in a loud tone of voice, "There come the bloodhounds now, you do your duty and I will do mine."
MR. GRINNELL: I object.
THE COURT: He may state whether he heard those words?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. You heard nothing of that import at all?
A. No sir.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. You didn't even hear the words, "We are peaceable".
A. No sir.