Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Walker. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Police officer at the April 1885 Board of Trade rally. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.J 260), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.J 256), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.J 264), 1885 April 28 Board of Trade protest (vol.J 255), Spies, August (vol.J 260), Parsons, Albert (vol.J 256), Lingg, Louis (vol.J 256), Schwab, Michael (vol.J 256), Fielden, Samuel (vol.J 256).
Testimony of Jeremiah Sullivan, 1886 July 23.
Volume J, 255-266, 12 p.
Police Officer, Chicago Police Department.
Go to Next Witness | Return to Previous Witness | Return to Trial TOC | Return to the HADC Table of Contents
[Image, Volume J, Page 255]
Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Direct examination by Mr. Walker. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.
Police officer at the April 1885 Board of Trade rally. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.J 260), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.J 256), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.J 264), 1885 April 28 Board of Trade protest (vol.J 255), Spies, August (vol.J 260), Parsons, Albert (vol.J 256), Lingg, Louis (vol.J 256), Schwab, Michael (vol.J 256), Fielden, Samuel (vol.J 256).
OFFICER JEREMIAH SULLIVAN,
produced as a witness on behalf of the people, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct Examination by
Q What is your name?
A Jeremiah F. Sullivan.
Q You are a police officer?
Q Were you on the force the day of the inaugeration of the Board of Trade Building?
Q Where were you on duty that night?
A I was down on Market Square.
Q Was there any officer with you?
A Yes, officer Trehard.
Q What was going on in Market Square?
A There was a meeting there that evening.
Q Where is Market Square?
A It is between Washington and Randolph street next the river, it is on the south side.
Q Tell us what was going on and what you saw?
A When we got down there there was quite a large crowd; one or two people were talking in German and trying to hold the crowd until the speakers came. Mr Schwab came there first, and Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden came there, and I believe this fellow with the lead pencil, the second man(Lingg) was there.
Q What occurred at that meeting?
A Mr. Parsons got on there after he was introduced and spoke about the Board of Trade, and carried on some figures showing how the poor man was robbed, and then he denounced the policemen as bloodhounds, and the militia as the servants of the capitalists---robbing the laboring classes, and invited them all in a body to go there and partake of some of the $20 dishes that they had up there.
Q Go where?
A Up to the Board of Trade Building.
Q Was anything said by him as to how they were to get to the Board of Trade?
A They were to get there by force.
Q What did he say on that subject?
A He wanted them to go right up there with him in a body.
Q State what he said?
A He said "Let us all go in a body and force our way in there."
Q Did anyone speak after him?
A Mr. Fielden spoke after that.
Q Now, will you give his language as near as you can?
A Mr. Fielden he got up there and denounced---
Q Say what was said?
A He denounced the police and militia as bloodhounds, and at that time there was a company of militia came there for the purpose of drilling, and he looked over towards the militia, and Mr. Schwab was there at the time, and he called the attention of the crowd and they all started towards the militia. Officer Treharn and I went over there.
Q What did Schwab say?
A He spoke in German. Officer Treharn and I went over there and asked the militia to disburse, and they did, and marched up Water street.
Q Then what occurred?
A Then I came back and I listened to Mr. Fielden, he was speaking, and he urged them to go up there and partake of those dishes.
Q Was there anything said as to what force should be used, if you remember?
A Well, force, in a body that was all that I could understand.
Q Then what was done?
A Then they all got into a
Body, some parties came along with red flags and they all got in a body and marched south.
Q Did you see any of the defendants in the procession?
Q Who were they?
A Mr. Schwab, Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden, and I am not positive as to that young fellow over there (Lingg).
Q At the meeting did you see any flags?
A When they started in the procession they came north; the flags came north with some parties; they were waiting there for flags.
Q What were the flags?
A They were red ones.
Q Was there a United States flag in the procession?
Q From there where did they go?
A They went to Madison Street; they went east on Madison Street to Fifth Avenue; there is a railroad track there; and then they went south to Van Buren Street, and then went to Clark Street, and then they turned on Clark Street and went north; and stopped there on Clark and Jackson Streets. I turned off with another officer over to 5th Avenue and went down and met them again at the hall.
Q Was there any one stationed at the streets there, down at the Board of Trade, or at that block:
A There was a platoon of police at every crossing.
Q Go on and state what occurred?
A The procession stopped down in front of 107 Fifth Avenue, known as the Arbeiter Zeitung office.
Q What occurred there? They went in there and upstairs. Parsons went in and spoke from the window.
Q Give us what he said as near as you can.
A Then he denounced the policemen as bloodhounds, and the militia also, and at the same stated how they stopped them from going in there and partaking of the food, and he said there was a good many of his audience there who did not have clothes and who could not afford to pay 20 cents for a meal, not alone $20,,and wanted them to go and follow him, and he would make a raid on those different places, mentioning Marshall Field's and one or two other places.
Q Did any one speak after him?
A Mr Fielden spoke.
Q Give us his language?
A He spoke on the same plan, and wanted them all to go down with him in a body, and he would lead them.
Q Was there anything said from that window, by any one, if so, whom, in regard to the force that should be used?
A Not that I have heard of.
Q You know Williamson, a reporter?
A I do.
Q Did you meet him that night?
A I met him that evening.
A Just as he was coming down stairs.
Q Tell us what occurred after you met him?
A He called our attention to what he saw upstairs, so we went upstairs with him, and I met Mr. Fielden just as I went in, and I shook hands with him and spoke to him.
Q You were in citizen's clothes that night?
Q Up to that time had you known any of these defendants?
A I have met five of them previously.
Q Do you know whether you were known to them?
A No, sir; they did not know me as a policeman.
Q What occurred then?
A Then the reporter went to show us this -- they went to explain the force of this.
Q Who were there?
A Mr. Fielden and Mr. Parsons and this gentleman here, Mr. Spies, he was at the desk; Mr. Schwab was there also.
Q State what was done, and what each one did?
A Mr. Parsons went over and asked Mr. Schwab for this dynamite, he asked this man here, Mr. Spies, he brought it over and Mr. Parsons showed how it could be used; that if it was thrown into a line of police or militia it would take the whole platoon.
Q Was there anything else exhibited there?
A Yes, a coil of fuse.
Q What was said about that, if anything?
I seemed to understand that. I says, "You can get that in any quarry; they use that in blasting powder". He says, "It comes in good to load these with -- to touch these off with" (referring to dynamite shells).
Q Did you see any caps there?
Q What were they.
A They were about the size of a 22 calibre cartridge.
Q Will you describe in substance that he said, if exploded, would blow up?
A It had a kind of reddish tint
Q What was it?
A It was in a stick, or what?
A A stick, and it was shaped about that long (indicating about a foot), and about an inch and a half in diameter, but the substance that he showed was dynamite; it looked like a red sand.
Q In that connection did you have any conversation with Parsons, or any one in his presence, about the Board of Trade Building when that was exhibited?
A Yes, I asked one of them why they didn't go in there; they said they were not prepared to-night, there were too many of the bloodhounds before them on the street, but that the next time they would turn out they would meet them with their own weapons and worse.
Counsel for defendants moved to exclude testimony of this witness.
Motion overruled; to which ruling defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
By Mr. Foster.
Q How long have you known Mr. Fielden?
A Well, sir, I have known him off and on for four years.
Q How long have you been on the detective force?
A Going on two years.
Q You were in the detective office at that time?
A Yes; I was a policeman at that time.
Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Fielden knew you were on the staff of the police force?
A No, sir.
Q You don't know whether he knew it or not?
A No, sir; he never saw me in uniform.
Q He might have known that you were on the police force
A He might.
Q What time was it that the meeting was first held at Market Square?
A We got there sharp at 7 o'clock, and it was between half past seven and eight o'clock when the first speaker came there.
Q And the speaking was going on -- the first speech made and the second was being made when the militia came down?
A Yes; Mr. Parsons was through speaking when the militia came.
Q That must have been eight o'clock, or after?
Q Are the militia in the habit of coming down to drill in the square at night?
A They were that summer.
Q It was after dark then?
Q Then they marched off and marched according to the line of march that you have given?
Q Were you at the head of the procession?
A No, sir, I was not.
Q Were you in the procession?
A I followed close on to it.
Q There was no halt in it at any time, was there?
A No, sir, there was not until they tried to turn in to the front end of the Board of Trade, and they were stopped there with a line of police.
Q Was there a halt in the front of the procession?
A They did halt when they came up to the line of the police.
Q They were going on Van Buren Street at that time?
A Had turned on to Jackson Street when the squad of police met them there.
Q How far from the front of the procession were you?
Q I was right in the squad of police; I got ahead of them.
Q You said you were in the back of them?
A I got right down in head of them.
Q So that you really headed the procession?
A I headed the procession when they were to go into the front of the building.
Q There was not any conflict between you and Parsons and Fielden as to who should be the marshal of that procession?
A No, sir, not at all.
Q But they marched on and finally brought up at 107 Fifth Avenue?
Q The speeches that you have related here were just about the same as were said down at the other place?
A Not exactly.
Q They varied it a little because they spoke of the bloodhounds down there?
A They varied it by saying they were going to break into Marshall Field's and those other places, and wanted the crowd to follow. The parties down stairs understood it as that night.
Q Then they broke in that night?
A No, they did not.
Q So after asking their force to march on Marshall Field's, they all went to bed as far as you know?
A Well, I can not account for that.
Q You say it was not Fielden that first made the speech there from the window -- it was Parsons that wanted to head the procession?
A Parsons was the person that spoke.
Q And then when Fielden spoke he wanted to head the procession?
A He wanted to go along with them.
Q And he wanted them to follow him?
Q He wanted to be leader?
Q When you went up into the office was there any discussion between Parsons and Fielden as to which should be the leader of the procession?
A No, there was not.
Q They were quietly talking?
A Yes, sir.
Q And as soon as you called for it they exhibited the dynamite, and told you what terrible force it had?
Q To you and the newspaper man? C
Q You do not know whether they knew he was a newspaper man?
A I don't know.
Q But there was two officers and a newspaper man --- two detectives and a newspaper man -- a bad crowd to circulate things in, I suppose, and they were exhibiting the dynamite to the two detectives and the fuse to the newspaper man, were they?
Q And how long did that conversation go on?
A Well, probably we were there three quarters of an hour -- from half to three quarterrs of an hour.
Q Which one of Marshall Field's establishments was referred to there in the street?
A They did not mention either of them.
Q Now, they were talking about that before they started on the march?
A No, sir; after.
Q They did not say anything about it before?
A No, sir; not that I heard of.
Q From the line of march that you have described they went right by Marshall Field's wholesale establishment?
Q You did not hear anything about dynamite or clothes on that occasion of their going by?
A No, sir.
Q And after that each one wanted to be a leader to march them on to Marshall Field's and other places, and then they stayed in the room while the crowd was dispersing and going home?
A They were in the room while I was there.
Q When you came down the crowd had principally dispersed and gone?
A Yes, we made some of them disperse.
Q Did you disperse the crowd, do you mean?
A We dispersed a part of what was down there.
Q The two of you?
Q Two officers dressed in citizen's clothes -- that is, you mean you dispersed one or two quarrelsome fellows?
Q That is all it amounted to?
A Yes, sir.