Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Police officer, wounded at Haymarket. Claims in his testimony to have seen Samuel Fielden shoot at the police from behind the wagon. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.I 235), actions of the police leading up to and at Haymarket (vol.I 232), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.I 233), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.I 232), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.I 232), the explosion (vol.I 238), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.I 234), I239, medical care and wounds (vol.I 234), Fielden, Samuel (vol.I 233).
Testimony of H. F. Krueger, 1886 July 19.
Volume I, 231-249, 19 p.
Police Officer, Chicago Police Department.
Go to Next Witness | Return to Previous Witness | Return to Trial TOC | Return to the HADC Table of Contents
[Image, Volume I, Page 231]
Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.
Police officer, wounded at Haymarket. Claims in his testimony to have seen Samuel Fielden shoot at the police from behind the wagon. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.I 235), actions of the police leading up to and at Haymarket (vol.I 232), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.I 233), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.I 232), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.I 232), the explosion (vol.I 238), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.I 234), I239, medical care and wounds (vol.I 234), Fielden, Samuel (vol.I 233).
H. F. KREUGER,
called as a witness on behalf of the people, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
Direct Examination by
Q You are a police officer?
Q Were you at Haymarket Square on the 4th of May last?
Q What company were you in?
A. I belonged to Lieut Steele's company.
Q Where were you with reference to that company when you were marching down the street?
A. I was number one front rank on the right.
Q That would bring you next to the curb?
Q That is the position that you walked down the street?
Q Did you see a crowd there as you marched down to Randolph Street?
Q What did they do as you marched along?
A. Well, to my recollection I should say they had a meeting there.
Q Did the crowd scatter in front of you or not?
Q Some of them went on the sidewalk on each side of us and the main body of them stood still until we came up.
Q Where were you when you halted?
A. I was within about eight feet of the speaker's stand.
Q In reference to that alley where were you when you halted?
A. I should judge about six or eight feet from my rear.
Q Do you mean you passed beyond the alley?
Q Did you hear any speaking when you came up there?
Q I heard some speaking on the wagon.
Q Did you hear what he said?
A. Well, I could not hear distinct what he said, only one remark that I distinguished when we got up pretty close, within 25 or 30 feet.
Q What was that?
A. I think it was something like
this: "Here they are, now, the bloodhounds", or some such remark as that.
Q Was that the speaker on the wagon?
A. I should judge it was. I would not be positive though.
Q Did you hear Ward or Bonfield say anything?
A. I heard Captain Ward order them in the name of the people of the State of Illinois to peaceably disperse, and he called on somebody to the right and left of him to assist in helping to disperse the crowd.
Q Was any response made by anybody on the wagon?
A There was a response made by the man on the wagon "we are peaceable".
Q Do you know that man?
A. Well, I should know him if I see him.
Q Is he among any of the defendants?
A. Is he one of the defendants?
A. I should judge he is the fourth from the left (pointing to Fielding).
Q It is Fielding?
A. I don't know his name.
Q Describe him?
A. That is the gentleman (pointing to Fielding).
Q In reference to his use of those words "we are peaceable", what did he do?
A. He stood at the south end of the wagon; the wagon was standing up north and somebody in the crowd told him to get down, and he said all right, and he stepped down from the wagon, and passed right to my
right behind the wagon, and in about a moment the bomb fell behind me.
Q And then what?
A. Then I saw a pistol in his hand and it exploded twice. I am certain of two shots being fired by that gentleman.
Q Where was he with reference to the wagon and where were you with reference to that wagon when that thing happened?
A I stood with in about six or eight feet of the wagon.
Q On which side of it? South of it, or the street side of it?
A On the street side of it; he passed right past me; I could almost have touched him with my hand; and he went right behind the wagon and stepped up on the sidewalk--upon the curbstone--when the bomb exploded, then I saw him have a pistol in his hand and he fired twice to my recollection.
Q Which way did he fire?
A. Well, I judge he fired directly at the column of the police.
Q What was his attitude? What did he do?
A. He took cover behind the wagon, as far as I could judge.
Q Describe how he took cover?
A. He took cover behind the wagon; he covered himself with the wagon--between the police and him; I then returned his fire, and at the same instant I received a bullet in my knee cap.
Q Have you got the bullet with you?
Q Let me see it? (The same is shown to counsel.)
Q Tell what knee you were wounded in?
A. I was wounded
in the right knee; I was standing in this position facing north (indicating).
Q Where was the wagon with reference to that spot?
A The wagon was about where this is (indicating) and Fielding was on the sidewalk about there (indicating).
Q And the wagon between you?
A. Yes sir.
Q When he fired what did he do?
A. He fired directly at the column of the police, and he fired two shots from there, the same as if this was the wagon (indicating) he would crouch in this way (indicating).
Q He stopped down behind the wagon?
Q Did you receive a wound?
A I received a wound the same instant.
Q Is that the bullet that was taken from your leg (indicating)?
Q Describe where that bullet went?in?
A. It went in from the side here (indicating) and stuck in the knee cap and was cut out right there (indicating).
Q It was a 38 calibre?
Q What is the last you saw of Fielding?
A. Well, the firing was going on pretty lively, and I saw that he was in the crowd and I shot at him again and he kind of staggered but did not fall, and he mixed up with the crowd and I did not see him any more after that.
Q Which way did he go?
A. I should judge he went
diagonally across the street.
Q This alley at Cranes?
A. Yes; just ran across about that way.
Cross Examination by
Q You say that you were about 25 feet from the wagon when you heard something said about bloodhounds?
A About 30 feet.
Q Was that all you heard---"the bloodhounds are coming," or "there they come"?
A. "There they come, the bloodhounds."
Q Was that all you heard?
A. That was about all I heard.
Q You did not hear anything further said by that vouce?
A The same voice, I should judge, made the remark "we are peaceable".
Q Well, at that time?
A. Not at that time.
Q At the time that you heard something about bloodhounds, did you hear that distinctly?
A. Yes, it was said in a deep tone of voice.
Q If there had been anything else said in that deep tone of voice in that connection you would have heard that I presume? That is all that you heard?
A. I heard something else, but I could not distinguish it.
Q Did you hear in a loud tone of voice "you do your duty
and we will do ours"?
A. Well, I heard something like that, but I would not swear to it.
Q Why didn't you tel the State's Attorney about that?
A Well, I am not certain of it. What I am not certain of I am not going to say.
Q Are you certain of it?
Q Then you did not hear "you do your duty and I will do mine"?
A. I heard something like that.
Q Did you hear that?
A. I am not positive. I heard something like that; that was the reason I would not tell it to the State's attorney.
Q All that you heard then that you are positive of is "here come the bloodhounds now"?
A. "Here they are now, the bloodhounds."
Q That is all that you are sure that you heard?
A. A Yes.
Q Then you marched upo within six feet of the wagon and halted?
Q Was the speaker in the wagon tat the time you halted?
A Well, I don't know whether it was the speaker or not.
Q Was the man that you point out as Fielding in the wagon?
A. Yes, he was in the wagonL
Q Your attention was attracted to that man?
Q So that you recognized him?
A. Yes; he had a peculiar look in his face.
Q You continued to watch the movements of that man?
A Not all of the time.
Q You did while he was getting out of the wagon?
A Well, not exactly, when he jumped out of the wagon either; there was a man right in front of me and I told him to step up on the sidewalk.
Q You could see well enough and hear well enough to know there was somebody who told him to get out of the wagon?
A Yes; I heard that remark.
Q And saw the man?
A. I saw him after getting down from off the wagon.
Q You saw the man that told him to get down out of the wagon?
A. No; I don't know who made that remark; some one made that remark.
Q Didn't you see that man?
Q As soon as someone said to Mr. Fielding "get down out of the wagon" didn't you see him get down out of the wagon and start towards the sidewalk?
A. I saw him after he was down on the sidewalk off of the wagon.
Q At the time he was down on the ground off of the wagon was the bomb exploded?
A. No sir; not exactly: it was two or three seconds after.
Q The first noise that you heard was the explosion of the bomb?
A. Well, I don't recollect exactly.
Q Didn't you know the first explosion--the first noise --first pistol shot--at least that the first noise that was
heard was the explosion of the bomb?
A. Well, I am not certain of that.
Q What is your best judgment?
A. There might have been a shot or two fired before that.
Q I don't ask you what there might have been: what is your best recollection? Was the explosion of the bomb the first noise, according to your best judgment?
A. No; I could not judge of that
Q You could not say?
Q How long was it after Mr. Fielding got down out of the wagon before the bomb exploded?
A. You might count three or four.
Q That is, after he got on the ground, you might say "one- two- three- four"?
Q Or, "one, two three"?
A. Yes, that is about it.
Q After he got down?
Q If there was a pistol shot fired before the bomb was exploded it was just before% wasn't it-- so near as to leave it in doubt in your mind?
A. Yes, it would have been, I should judge; but I am not a judge of that.
Q You would not have had time to count one, two three after the pistol shot was fired before the bomb was exploted, would you?
A. Well, you might have had. I am not certain on that point.
Q Now, your best judgment is, is it not, that the
pistol shots and bomb exploded at about the time--almost simultaneously?
A. The bomb was fired or exploded when the gentleman was pretty near on the sidewalk; he got a couple of steps from the sidewalk.
Q The question is whether or not the pistol firing and the bomb explosion did not commence about the same time--- about the same instant?
A. I do not know anything about the pistol firing.
Q You did not hear any pistol firing?
A. I don't recollect anything about that.
Q You are not going to say there was any pistol fired until the bomb was exploded?
A. I did not hear it and I am not going to say it.
Q Your judgment now is that you did not hear a pistol fired until you heard the bomb?
A. I don't say that.
Q Do you remember now to have heard a pistol before the bomb? Did you hear a pistol before the bomb?
A. No sir; I cannot recollect that.
Q You cannot recollect it?
A. No sir.
Q Then your first recollection is that the explosion was the bomb?
A. That is my recollection.
Q If Mr. Fielding got out of the wagon and walked to the side walk, and you could have counted one, two three before the explosion of the bomb he did not fire a pistol from the wagon, did he?
A Well, I don't know anything about that.
Q You were within six feet of him, weren't you?
A I was within 6 or 8 feet.
Q Did you hear him fire from the wagon?
A. I don't say that I did. I don't know.
Q Did you hear him?
A. I cannot swear to that.
Q Did you see him fire a pistol?
A. I was not watching him.
Q Did you see the blaze of a pistol from the wagon in the dark before he got off?
A. I did not; there was a man right in front of me.
Q You were within six feet?
A. Yes; I might have been within six feet, and with a man in front of me I might not have seen it.
Q You think you could have stood within six feet of him and he have fired a pistol and it rung out in the air and you not have known it?
A. In the excitement it might.
Q So then you say standing within 6 feet of Fielding, facing him and looking at him that you did not see him draw a revolver and fire it?, as he was getting off the wagon?
A I did not say that I was looking all the time. I said that my attention was attracted to a man in front of me.
Q Your face was towards Mr. Fielding?
Q Was the man in front of you on the ground?
A. He was standing in front of me. I laid my hand on him.
Q Was he on the ground?
Q Was Mr. Fielding on the wagon?
A. He was on that wagon until we got up.
Q How high was the wagon above the ground?
A. I should judge about 3 feet.
Q How high are you?
A. I am six feet.
Q Any more than that?
A. Well, not, only half an inch.
Q Six feet and half an inch?
Q Do you say that standing on the ground as you did with Fielding standing three feet higher as he did, that your view of Fielding was obstructed by a man standing on the ground in front of you?
A. Yes; it was to some extent.
Q You could not see over his head and see Fielding?
A I might have if my attention was not directed to this man.
Q What was the man doing that attracted your attention?
A He stood there and I told him to step aside.
Q Didn't he step aside promptly?
Q There was no firing during the time you told him to step aside, was there?
A. Well, I don't know.
Q You did not hear any?
A. I would not swear to it; not to my recollection.
Q You did not see any?
A. Not to my recollection.
Q And then when he stepped aside Fielding was still in the wagon?
A. When the man stepped aside Fielding was on
Q At the time the man stepped aside was Fielding still in the wagon?
A. He was on the wagon when I told the man to step aside, that gentleman was in the wagon, and when the man moved on to the sidewalk Fielding was down.
Q Did Fielding get down out of the wagon before the man went to the sidewalk or afterwards?
A He did in the same moment.
Q The man went to the right of the end of the wagon?
Q Then when the man moved to the right Fielding was in plain view of you, was he not?
A. He might have been, but I was not looking at him. I was looking at the man.
Q You say that that instant when he was getting out of the wagon there was no blaze of a revolver?
A. That I cannot recollect.
Q You don't remember of seeing it?
A. No sir.
Q You don't remember of hearing it?
A. No, not at that time; not to my best recollection.
Q You say that Fielding passed to the sidewalk?
A He stepped up to the sidewalk.
Q And got under cover of the wagon?
Q That is went north?
A. He stepped right behind the wagon--- one step north.
Q The rear of the wagon where there were no sideboards or no obstruction was to the south, wasn't it?
Q So when he passed out of the wagon he passed south and got down?
Q You were within six feet of him further south and near the curbstone?
Q He then went to the sidewalk and went north?
A Stepped right behind the wagon.
Q How near was he to the curb at the time you say he fired?
A. He was right on the curb; he stepped right on to the curb.
Q How near to the curb were you in the street?
A Well, I was within, I should judge, four feet of the curb-- four or five feet of the curb.
Q How far did he go north of the end of the wagon which was within six feet of you?
A. He went only one step north.
Q How far north of the end of the wagon before you say he fired?
A. He just stepped behind the wagon.
Q That is, to the side?
A. Yes, to the side of the wagon.
Q How far from the south end was it that he stepped?
A Just enough to cover his body.
Q I believe you said about three feet?
A. I did not say anything of the kind.
Q How near was it?
A. He merely stepped behind the wagon.
Q There is no use of us having any misunderstanding about it. Supposing that this book represents the wagon; this is south; he stepped off of the south end down here?
Q How far did he go north to get behind the wahon?
A He only stepped right behind the wagon.
Q Stepped up where?
A. Right off of the wagon.
Q I will say three feet, is that right?
A. It don't take three feet to cover a man's body.
Q He stepped far enough north to cover his body?
Q So that then he was probably seven or eight feet from you?
Q If you were near the curbstone and you was on the curbstone you were almost facing each other?
A. No, not exactly.
Q Well, very near?
A. He would be a little to the right.
Q Were you facing the north at that time?
Q Did you continue to be facing the north?
Q Now you say the bullet wound that you received came in to the back and right of your leg?
A. It came right in here.
Q That is about this part of your leg?
Q Did it pass to the rear of your leg or to the front of it?
A. It passed down here and came up again (indicating).
Q That is it passed to the front on to the knee cap?
Q And Fielding at that time was a little to the right but mostly to the north of you?
Q And you were facing him?
Q Do you know what calibre that is?
A I think it is a 38.
Q That would be a Smith & Wesson 38?
Q The bomb had exploded at the time you received the wound in the leg?
A. Yes, it had exploded.
Q Where have you carried this?
A. I had it at my home right along.
Q Has there been any scraping performed on this?
A No sir, not a bit of it.
Q It is just as it was?
Bullet referred to in this examination introduced in evidence by the people.
Q Have you your revolver with you?
Q Have you any objection to letting me see it?
A No sir.
Q Is that the same one you had that night?
Q That is the regular pistol that is used by the police force?
Q At the time of the explosion of the bomb I understand there was considerable shooting, immediately after by the crowd and by the police both. Did you shoot?
Q You emptied your revolver?
A. Yes, I emptied my revolver.
Q Now, isn't it true, that from the moment of the crack of the first pistol and of the explosion of the bomb, whichever was first, that there was a great deal of excitement right there in the crowd and a great deal of commotion and moving about?
A. There might have been, certainly, as in all cases of that kind.
Q There were more men that Fielding in the wagon?
A Well, I don't know. I think there were probanly one or two more in it. I would not swear to it.
Q There was a general scattering for the sidewalk on the part of the crowd and a bustling and running through alleys as soon as the actual hostilities began?
A. As soon as the bomb was fired.
Q Then there was a general scattering and confusion?
A They did not scatter so very much for a few seconds.
Q Well, very soon after that?
A. As soon as it could be realized what was going on.
Q Then the scattering begam?
Q Do you say that you fired your revolver at any one until after the explosion of the bomb?
A. Most certainly not; not until after the shots came from the sidewalk.
Q How many people were on the sidewalk by the side of the wagon when you marched up there?
A. Well, I am a poor judge of that; I cannot tell; there was a good many.
Q Well, how many would you say were at the side of the wagon, on the east side of the wagon--about how many people were there?
A. Well, that is a question I cannot answer. I cannot come near to the number of it.
Q It was full there?
A. Yes, it was pretty well crowded.
Q Did you say that you were about 8 feet north of the north line of the alley?
A. Yes; I was about 8 or 10 feet.
Q North of the north line when you came to a halt?
A Yes, north of the alley.
Q You were number one on the front rank?
Q And when you received this shot you were still in the rank?
A Yes; I was still in the rank.
Q You hadn't left the ranks at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q Did you leave your ranks?
A. No sir, I did not move at all.
Q Mr. Fielding was then probably 7 or 8 feet further
to the north of you and a little to the right, was he?
A Yes; that was his position.
Q Now, when he went away you say that he went through the alley?
A. I could not swear to it. I said he mixed in the crowd towards the alley.
Q I understood you to say a while ago in your testimony that he went through the alley-- mixed with the crowd and went away through the alley?
A. Diagonally towards the alley.
Q Then he came towards you?
A. No, he crossed away from me; he was behind the wagon and crossed over to the alley.
Q The wagon was north of the alley? the wagon must have been north of the alley 14 or 15 feet; you were 8 feet north and then there were 6 feet further to the wagon; the wagon must have been about 14 feet north of the alley?
A I did not measure it. It might be that many feet more or less.
Q If Fielding went through the alley that was behind you he must have advanced towards you to get to the alley?
A Not exactly.
Q Did he get through the alley?
A. I don't know. I said he went towards the alley.