Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination and re-cross by Mr. Zeisler. Redirect examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. People's Exhibit 9 (vol.I 102) introduced into evidence. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): bombs (vol.I 101), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.I 104), Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.I 108), trajectory of the bomb, McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.I 117), Greif's Hall (vol.I 109), Zepf's Hall (vol.I 114), eight-hour movement (vol.I 125), arrangements made for the Haymarket meeting (vol.I 111), witnesses who were given money by the prosecution or the police (vol.I 123), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for murder or conspiracy (vol.I 120), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.I 107), Spies, August (vol.I 114), Parsons, Albert (vol.I 130), Lingg, Louis (vol.I 131), Schwab, Michael (vol.I 130), Fielden, Samuel (vol.I 130), Engel, George (vol.I 109), the "Monday Night" meeting (vol.I 104), Neebe, Oscar (vol.I 130), Fischer, Adolph (vol.I 113), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.I 102), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.I 112), People's Exhibit 9 (vo.I 102).
Testimony of Godfried Waller (second appearance), 1886 July 17.
Volume I, 101-140, 39 p.
Cabinet Maker, member of Lehr und Wehr Verein; German immigrant.
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[Image, Volume I, Page 101]
Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination and re-cross by Mr. Zeisler. Redirect examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. People's Exhibit 9 (vol.I 102) introduced into evidence.
Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): bombs (vol.I 101), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.I 104), Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.I 108), trajectory of the bomb, McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.I 117), Greif's Hall (vol.I 109), Zepf's Hall (vol.I 114), eight-hour movement (vol.I 125), arrangements made for the Haymarket meeting (vol.I 111), witnesses who were given money by the prosecution or the police (vol.I 123), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for murder or conspiracy (vol.I 120), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.I 107), Spies, August (vol.I 114), Parsons, Albert (vol.I 130), Lingg, Louis (vol.I 131), Schwab, Michael (vol.I 130), Fielden, Samuel (vol.I 130), Engel, George (vol.I 109), the "Monday Night" meeting (vol.I 104), Neebe, Oscar (vol.I 130), Fischer, Adolph (vol.I 113), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.I 102), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.I 112), People's Exhibit 9 (vo.I 102).
August Spies, et al.
Saturday 10 A.M., July 17, A. D. 1886.
a witness on behalf of the people, being re-called to the stand, was further examined by Mr. Ingham, through Mr. E.F.L. Gauss, as interpreter, and testified as follows:
Q What became of the bomb which you had?
Objected to; objection overruled and exception.
A I gave it to a member of the---I don't know how that society was rendered here.
MR. BLACK--Lehr and Wehr Verein. Just give the German.
A Lehr and Wehr Verein---I gave it to a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein. I had it with me two weeks in my house.
MR. INGHAM: Q Do you know what became of it finally?
Q Do you know of your own knowledge what became of it?
A Yes sir.
A He had it exploded in the woods in a hollow tree.
Q Did you have any bomb or any revolcer with you when you went to the Haymarket Square or any arm of any kind?
Objected to. Objection overruled; exception by defendants.
A I had a revolver with me.
Q Did you have any bomb?
Q Do you remember whether Schnaubelt was present at the Lake Street meeting or not, Monday night?
Q What is Schnaubelt's first name?
A As much as I know, it is Rudolph.
Q Look at the photograph which I now show you. (Handing witness photograph, which was marked Exhibit 5; see below).
A That is Schnaubelt.
MR. INGHAM. I offer that in evidence. Same hereto attached and marked Peoples' Exhibit 9, in Vol. of "Exhibits" hereto attached.
Q Did Schnaubelt say anything at that meeting?
Q What did he say?
A He said that we should inform our members in other places of the resolutions.
Q Did he say anything else?
A He said that the thing should commence in other places also.
Q What thing?
A "It." He said that "it" should also commence at other places.
Q Ask him what he means by "it"?
A The revolution.
Q Were you present at a meeting at Emma street on the Sunday before this meeting at Lake Street?
A Yes sir.
Q Where was that meeting held?
A I cannot name the place exactly. On Emma street about fifty houses from Milwaukee avenue.
Q Whose place was it?
A It is known as the Bohemian Hall.
Q Do you know who keeps it?
Q How did you come to go to that meeting?
A I was invited to it.
Q Who by?
A One with the name of Krueger.
Q Do you remember his first name?
A August Krueger.
Q Ask him how many Kruegers he knows?
Q What are they called?
A Reinhold Krueger and August Krueger.
Q Are they also called the little Krueger and the large Krueger?
Q Which one of those two was it?
A The little one.
Q Just here I will interrupt you and ask something I
forgot: you said yesterday that Krueger was present, that there was a Krueger present at the meeting on Lake street. Which Krueger was it?
A They were both there.
Q Give their names?
A Reinbold and August Krueger.
Q What time did you get to the meeting at Emma street--what time of the day?
A The Sunday the second, in the morning at 10 o'clock.
Q Who were present at that meeting?
A Mostly members of the Northwestern Groups. Some members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein.
Q Give the names as fully as you can remember?
A Engel, Fischer, Greenewald, Krueger, the two, August Krueger and Reinbold, Schrader; I myself. That is all that I know.
Q By Engel and Fischer do you mean the defendants in this case?
Q Who presided at that meeting?
A I did not know him.
Q What was said at the meeting?
(Same objection on behalf of all of the defendants except Fischer and Engel. Overruled and exception by defendants.)
A The same that I stated yesterday, Engel's plan.
Q Who proposed the plan?
Q Now, what did he say?
A He submitted a plan
of his own conception, according to which whenever it would come to a conflict between the Northwestern Groups- he had submitted it to the Northwestern Group also--according to which plan as soon as it came to a conflict between the police and the Northwestern Groups, that bombs should be thrown into the Police stations and the rifle men of the Lehr and Wehr Verein should post themselves in line in a certain distance and whoever would come out should be shot down.
Q Come out of where?
A All those that would come out of the station or stations, he had said: then it should proceed in that way until we would come to the heart of the city.
Q What else?
A That is about all. Within the city, of course the fight should commence in earnest.
Q Did anybody else say anything?
A There was some opposition, disputes against the plan, also.
Q Who opposed?
A I didn't know him, or didn't know them.
Q What did he say---the man that you did not know?
A He thought that there was too few of us and it would be better if we would place ourselves among the people and fight right in the midst of them.
Q Did the meeting take any action with regard to the plan?--- Was anything else said then, after this man had spoken
A Yes sir. There was something else said--some more said.
Q What else was said?
A There was some opposition to that, to be in the midst of the crowd, as we could not know who would be our nearest neighbor of the crowd; there might be a detective right near us, or someone else.
Q Was there anything else said, that you remember?
A No sir.
Q Did the meeting take any action of these plans?
A The plan was at last finally accepted.
Q Which plan?
A The plan of Engel.
Q Look at the book which I now show you. (Showing witness small pink colored paper-covered book, in German.) Have you ever seen a copy of that book?
A I did not see them myself, no.
Q Not this particular book, but one just like it?
MR. INGHAM--Take the witness!
MR. BLACK: As a matter of form before cross examination is proceeded with we move to strike out the entire testimony of this witness, and I also move to strike out, at the suggestion of my associate all of the testimony which has come in under objection, especially, and take an exception.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY
Q Mr. Waller, how long have you been a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein?
A I had left it about four or five months ago, but aside from that I had been a member four or five months. I think he said I had left it four months ago and had been previously a member four or five months.
Q When you joined the Lehr and Wehr Verein were you informed of the objects of the society?
Q Did you ever see a copy of the Rules, of the Constitution and By-Laws of that Society?
Q Didn't you know that the objects of the Lehr and Wehr Verein are the physical and intellectual advancement of its members?
A I became aware of that afterwards.
Q You know however, that those are the objects of the Society?
Q Who of these eight defendants are members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, if you know?
THE COURT: Do you mean now, or then?
MR. ZEISLER--Are or were, about the 4th of May, of course: that is what we refer to.
A I don't know whether Mr. Schwab is still a member or no. I don't know anyone else--don't know it of any one else.
Q Was Engel a member of that Society during the time
you were a member?
Q Was Fischer?
Q Was Lingg?
Q Was any of the other defendants?
Q You say that the letter "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung under the heading "Letter Box" meant that the Lehr and Wehr Verein was to meet at Greif's Hall--is that so?
A I did not say that.
Q What did you say about that?
THE COURT---That is not competent Mr. Zeisler, to question a witness as to what has taken place here. You question him about what took place, about matters which are the subject of investigation. But if one repetition is admissible, then there is no limit.
MR. ZEISLER--Very well.
Q Have you ever seen the letter "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung under that head on previous occasions?
Q How many times?
A I think once before.
Q About when was that?
A I cannot tell any more exactly.
Q Well, how many months before the third of May,---or weeks?
A One or one and a half months.
Q Did you go there?
Q You said you went to Greif's Hall on the night of May
the 3rd pursuant to the "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung--that is so?
A Yes, but I didn't want to go there; I was gotted. Somebody came for me.
Q Who came for you?
A A member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein by the name of Clermond.
Q You said you had no other reason for going to Greif's Hall that night except that you had seen the letter "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung. Is that so?
A No; I didn't have any other reasons.
Q And you say you had seen no other document or no document before you went there?
MR. INGHAM--Mr. Interpreter, I want to ask you if you say that he had no other reason or reasons?
THE INTERPRETER--He said he had no other reasons.
MR. ZEISLER--No other reason.
THE INTERPRETER--No, reasons; he used the plural.
Q You saw one of the defendants before you went to Greif's Hall--who was that?
A It was Engel.
Q But you had no conversation with him about the purpose of this meeting?
A We did not know what it would be---for what purpose it was.
Q Now, of the eight defendants only Engel and Fischer were at that meeting? Is that so?
A Yes, as much as I knew, or as many as I knew.
Q Who requested Engel to state the resolutions adopted
at the meeting of the Northwest Side Group the day before?
A If I am correct he stated it at first of his own accord; the second time I had requested him to state it, to lay it before the meeting. When then more people came to the meeting, I requested him to lay it before the meeting again.
Q But you are not quite sure that he stated those resolutions of his own accord?
A I am sure that he drew them up, the Sunday before.
Q I have not been taling about the Sunday meeting. I was talking about the Monday meeting. Are you quite sure that he laid those resolutions before the meeting of his own accord?
A You said, I think, he did so, didn't you?
THE COURT--Mr. Zeisler, that is not proper; you can cross examine him of course to any extent, as to things that occurred out of the court room.
MR. ZEISLER--All right, I will withdraw the question.
Q Now, is it not the fact that Mr. Engel both at the meeting on Sunday and at the meeting on Monday night stated that this plan was to be followed in case the police should interfere with your right of free speech and free assembling only?
A If the police should attack us.
Q Did he not say that that plan was to be followed only in case the police should interfere with your rights that I have mentioned, and by brutal force?
A It was said
that any time whenever we should be attacked by the police we should defend ourselves
Q. I am not speaking about what was said by others. I am speaking about the plan laid before the meeting by Engel. Did he not say that this plan was to be followed only when the police would by brutal force interfere with your right of free assembley and free speech?
A. It was said that we should use--we should resort to this plan, or to the execution of it whenever it would suit us, or whenever the police would attack us.
THE COURT:--The witness don't get the point of the question.-Whether Engel said on what occasion the plan was to be employed.
A No--he did not say that.
MR. ZEISLER:-Now, you say that you made the motion yourself, that a meeting should be called for Tuesday night?
A No; Tuesday morning.
Q But you first made the proposition that a meeting should be called for the next day? Isn't that so?
A No; I did not make that proposition. I was Chairman.
Q Who made the motion?
A nO. I simply stated that it would be good to hold a meeting the next morning at 10 o'clock. Who made a motion I cannot now remember, but it was voted down, and Engel--or, Fischer then made the proposition that a meeting should be held at Haymarket Square on the following night.
MR. GRINNELL--Didn't the witness say something in that first part about Market Square?
THE INTERPRETER--Haymarket Square.
THE WITNESS--Market Squate.
MR. ZEISLER--Now, Mr. Waller, you mean to be understood that you made the suggestion of that meeting but somebody else
then took it up and made the motion, is that it?
Q And you say that nothing was said at the Monday night meeting with reference to any action to be taken by you on the Haymarket?
A We should not do anything; we were not to do anything at the Haymarket Square.
Q Wasn't the plan that you should not be present there at all?
Q And you also say that you did not anticipate that the police would come to the Haymarket?
THE INTERPRETER--He said simply, no.
Q What do you mean by no--it was not anticipated?
A We did not think that the police would come to Haymarket.
Q And for this reason no preparations were made for meeting any police attack on the Haymarket Square?
A No; not by us.
Q And you say that the word "Ruhe" was adopted as a signal to call all the members of the armed section to their meeting places in case of a downright revolution. That is wha what you want to be understood as saying?
A It was to be the signal to bring the members together at the various meetings in case of a revolution, but it was not to be in the papers until the revolution should actually take place.
Q Where should it be if not in the paper?
A In the Letter Box in the Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q You say that Fischer went away at night to go to a printing establishment and order the hand-bills calling the Haymarket meeting---is that so?
Q About how late was that?
A It was shortly after 9 o'clock.
Q And when did he come back?
A Half an hour after - wards
Q Did he say to what printing establishment he had gone?
A I do not know.
Q Didn't he say that he had been to Wehrer & Klein's and that they had closed?
A I cannot say where he had been: he only came and said that they had already closed.
MR. INGHAM--That they what?
A That they had already closed the printing establishment.
MR. ZEISLER--When did you see the word "Ruhe" in the Arbeiter Zeitung?
A Sunday morning at Thalia Hall and in the "Fackel."
A On Tuesday.
Q About what time?
A About 6 o'clock.
Q When you read it you knew the meaning of it, didn't you?
A I knew the meaning, but I didn't know why it was in the paper.
MR. ZEISLER--I wish the interpreter to say to the witness that I do not care to have him answer to anything that
I have not asked him. He always says more than I ask him.
Q Now, where were you at eight o'clock?
THE COURT--What night?
MR. ZEISLER--That very night.
MR. ZEISLER--Tuesday night, yes.
A Tuesday night, I think I was still at home.
Q And from there you went to the meeting of the Furniture Workers' Union, No. 1, didn't you?
A Not directly.
Q Where did you stop?
A Stopped at Mr. Engel's.
Q Was he at home?
Q From there then you went to the Haymarket?
A Yes sir.
Q But only stopped a few minutes because you did not understand English.
A I was there about half an hour, quarter of an hour; half an hour it might have been.
Q Who was speaking while you were there?
A Mr. Spies.
Q And from there you went to Zepfs' Hall where the meeting of the Furniture Workers' Union was held?
A I met Fischer, walked hither and thither a few times with him on Randolph street, and then I went to Zepfs' Hall.
Q I did not ask you whether about who you have met. I only ask you whether or not you had gone--
THE COURT--It is an answer to your question. Because
your question implied that he went direct without interrupting from the Haymarket to this Hall that you speak of. Now, that explains that he did not go direct, and he gives his movements between.
MR. ZEISLER--I don't care anything for the movements. I only wanted to know whether he went after that to the Furniture Workers' Union?
Q Well, afterwards, you went to the Furniture Workers' Union, did you not?
Q Engel didn't say anything to you, did he, when he met you or when you met him at the Haymarket?
A I did not meet him at the Haymarket.
Q Where did you meet him--Engel?
A I did not meet him al all any more on that Tuesday night except after 10 at his own house.
Q Now, you were at his house at 8 o'clock you say and did not find him at home: and did not see him that evening until after 10 o'clock - I mean Engel?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you see him as near as you can remember?
A Tuesday evening.
Q What time--what hour?
A Tuesday evening about half past 10.
Q After the bomb had been thrown?
Q Now, you met Fischer on your way from the Haymarket to Zepfs' Hall, didn't you?
A I met him at Haymarket.
Q Did he say anything to you?
A We were walking about some time---yes.
Q Did he ask you why you were not at Wicker Park?
A That I cannot say.
Q Did he say anything about Wicker Park?
A I don't think so.
Q So Fischer said nothing about Wicker Park?
A I don't believe so.
Q Did he say anything about the police?
A We once walked over to Desplaines Street Station, and the police were mounting five or six patrol wagons, and I made the remark "I suppose they are getting ready to drive out to McCormick's so that they might be out there early in the morning."
Q Well, did Fischer say anything to that?
A He assented to my remark.
Q Now, where did you leave Fischer--where was he when you left him?
A I think in the neighborhood of Desplaines Street Station.
Q Is that all that was said about the police between you and him on that occasion?
A That was all--about the police.
Q How many people were there assembled at the Haymarket about that time when you talked with Fischer?
A Three hundred and fifty or four hundred men.
Q Had it not been--wasn't it expected by the meeting of Monday night that there should be a gathering of about twenty-five thousand people on the Haymarket?
A We thought so.
Q Did anybody say that he thought so?
A It was to be a mass meeting.
Q Well, that is not strictly responsive.
THE COURT--The question is whether anybody in the Monday night meeting said that there would be twenty-five thousand?
MR. ZEISLER--Or more?
A Nobody expressed himself to that effect.
Q Was it not the sole, or at least the principle purpose of the meeting on the Haymarket to protest against the action of the police, in shooting at the workingmen at McCormick's riot, or at the riot at McCormick's factory?
Q Now, when you saw Fischer there and there were about three hundred and fifty to four hundred people assembled, about half past eight, did Fischer or you say anything about preparations to meet an attack by the police?
A No. There was nothing said between them.
Q When did you say you were at Engel's house on Tuesday night after the bomb had been thrown? What hour?
A Half past 10 o'clock about.
Q When did the meeting of the Furniture Workers Union adjourn.
A Shortly after the bomb was thrown, but I don't know. I was down below, downstairs, when they adjourned.
Q Now, you said that the saloon was shut up for awhile after the bomb had been thrown---was that so?
A Somebody was at the door and would not let anyone come out as long as there was firing.
Q About how long was that door locked?
A A short time.
Q About how many minutes?
A Three or four minutes.
Q And then you went in again?
Q Well, you had not come out yet, had you?
A When the door opened, I came out and went home: I did not go home directly. I went first to Engel.
Q Now, how long a distance is it from Zepf's Hall to Engel's house?
A About fifteen minutes walk.
Q Do you know the time or the exact time, when the bomb was thrown?
A Not exactly.
Q Well, what is your estimation?
A About 10 minutes after 10.
Q Now, when you came to Engel's who was there?
A Bretenfeldt, Krueger--the little Krueger, Kreamer,---the little Krueger, Kraemer, and a few others whom I do not know.
Q Does not Kraemer live at the house, the same house where Engel lives?
A I think, yes--in the rear, I think.
THE COURT: Although you put your question in the present tense do you mean now or then.
MR. ZEISLER:--Now. I intended to ask him whether it was not the same date?-
Q Now, at the time--I mean on May the 4th--did Kraemer live there to?
A I cannot assert it.
Q You know that he lives there now, but don't you know that he lived there on May the 4th?
A I don't know that either---that he lives there now or not.
Q When did he live there?
A I don't know. He was there and it was only said that he lived there.
MR. BLACK--Mr. Interpreter, his answer, as I understand, was that the little Krueger was there, not both of them?
THE INTERPRETER--The little Krueger: he said Krueger, the little Krueger. I did not know that he said that in explanation: I thought he meant both.
MR. BLACK--But what he meant was that little Krueger was there?
THE INTERPRETER--That little Krueger was there only.
MR. ZEISLER--Now, didn't Engel on that occasion say it had been a piece of nonsense, what they did on the Haymarket--that the police are workingmen as well as we?
A Not Engel said so. It was I that said so.
Q Didn't Engel say so to?
A Yes: afterwards also.
Q Did he not say that the Revolution must arise from the people, if the police and the militia see that the people arise in masses then they will throw their arms away?
---Then we can accomplish our purposes without bloodshed. Did he say that?
Q How long did you stay there?
A At the highest five minutes.
Q Didn't he say that he would never give his consent to such a butchery as that on the Haymarket?
A He didn't say anything that evening--nothing at all,--that is, he didn't say anything of that, and he said that we should go home.
Q Now, when you left there did Kraemer, and Krueger and some of the others stay with him?
A That I did not know--when I left Breitenfeldt accompanied me.
Q But when you left with Breitenfeldt, Kraemer and Krueger were still there?
A That I cannot say.
Q Did they leave before you left?
A No sir. Several went out of the door together, and where they all went I do not know.
Q You know that you are indicted for conspiracy, do you not?
Q When were you arrested, if you remember?
A I do not know any more exactly.
Q Well, tell me about how many weeks after the 4th of May?
A About two weeks.
Q Who arrested you?
A Two detectives.
Q Do you remember their names?
A One's name is
Stift, and the other's name is Whalen.
Q To what station were you brought?
A To East Chicago Avenue.
Q And were youmput down into a cell at once?
Q Who did you see there first at the station?
A Captain Shaack.
Q How son after that did you see Mr. Furthman?
A In the evening.
Q About what hour in the day were you arrested?
A I think it was in the afternoon at 2 o'clock.
Q And what hour was it when you saw Mr. Furthman?
A Between 7 and 8: I cannot say exactly.
Q In what part of the station were you between 2 and the time you saw Mr. Furthman?
A I had to wait in the court room.
Q When were you released, Mr. Waller?
A About half past eight.
Q About half past eight of the same day on which you were arrested?
A The same day.
Q Had the detectives who arrested you a warrant for your arrest?
THE COURT--That don't make any differonce. What happened to the witness himself is admissible.
MR. ZEISLER--Did they exhibit any warrant to you?
Objected to: objection overruled.
A I did not ask about it.
Q I did not ask you whether you asked for it; I asked whether it was shown you.
THE COURT--Did he show you anything?
A They told me that they were not arresting me. That Capt. Schaack only wanted to see me.
THE COURT--Well, even that is not an answer to the question.
Q The question is, did they show you any warrant?
MR. INGHAM--That he has to answer by yes or no.
MR. ZEISLER--Was a warrant shown to you, yes or no?
Q Have you ever been arrested since your indictment?
Q About how many times were you ordered to come to the Chicago Avenue Police Station since you were first brought there?
A About four or five times.
Q At every of those occasions did you have any conversation with Mr. Furthman about the statements that you made here yesterday?
A No, not every time.
Q Did Mr. Furthman, or anybody else at the Station tell you that you were indicted for conspiracy?
A Mr. Furthman
communicated the fact to me at one time. That is, he did not say that we had been, but that we were to be indicted. I saw that we were indicted in the paper.
Q Now, on that first day, when you were at the Chicago Avenue Police Station, did you make the same statement that you made here yesterday?
A Yes. Not all at the same time.
Q What inducements we e held out to you in the first place for making your statements, Mr. Waller?
A There were no offers made to me.
Q Where did you live on May the 4th, MR. Waller?
A 509 Milwaukee Avenue.
Q Wher4 do you live now?
A 130 Sedgwick Street.
Q Since when have you lived at 130 Sedgwick Street?
A Today a month.
Q Wasn't your rent for the place where you live now% paid once or more than once, by Mr. Furthman, or by Capt. Schaack, or somebody connected with the East Chicago Avenue Station?
A I had no money at the time and Capt. Schaack gave me six dollars and a half for the rent.
Q Have you received money from any of those persons that I have mentioned at any other time since you were arrested?
A Whenever I used my time I was paid for it.
Q What time do you mean?
A We once had to sit all day in the station, and we were paid $2.00 for that day.
Q How many times did you sit there the whole day at the Station?
Q So you say that you received $2. for sitting there a whole day only once?
Did you receive money from them for any other considerations or on other occasions?
A I have been on a strike so long and Capt. Schaack said to me that if I were out of money that my wife shold come to his place and that he would give her something, and he gave her three times $3.00
Q Are you willing to swear that he only gave her three dollars on three occasions?
A Yes; that is, he gave me twice before, $5. each time.
Q Now, you received once $2 for sitting there a whole day? And your wife received on three occasions three dollars each, and you received twice, $5? And you received once before $6.50 for rent. Is that all the money you have ever received from those gentlemen?
A I only received $5 once and at another time $6.50.
Q Is that all?
Q On what day did you move into 130 Sedgwick Street?
A The 15th of last month. On the 17th--not the 15th.
Q How many rooms did you have there?
Q And what is the rent?
Q Have you been at work since the 4th of May?
A Yes. I am to work now, these two weeks.
Q Who do you work for?
A For Peterson on Wells Street.
Q Who got the job for you?
A I, myself.
Q Didn't Mr Furthman of Capt. Schaack, or any of the gentlemen connected with the East Chicago Avenue Station help you to get that employment?
A I went there myself and obtained work of the foreman, but he said that I was--- when I was to commence work, I was told that I was on the black list and could not work, and as I had to tell Capt. Schaack where I was at work, he went there and talked to them and then I could commence work.
Q So Capt. Schaack assisted you in getting that job?
A Yes; he helped me to it.
Q What do you mean by being on the black list, Mr. Waller?
A The bosses put all those upon the black list who were anyway connected with the strike or the effort to obtain eight hours work, and they were not to be employed any further.
Q To-day is the day where you have to pay your rent? Did you save enough during the last two weeks to pay your rent?
A I have paid it to-day.
Q You say that you know that you are indicted for conspiracy, and you say that you were not arrested under that charge. Did you ever give bail to be released?
Q Do you know a certain hall called Foltz's Hall?
Q Where is that hall?
A It is on Wells Street and Chicago Avenue.
Q Do you remember having been in that hall on Wednesday, the 9th of June?
A Yes. I don't know whether that is the exact date or not.
Q You remember that it was a Wednesday?
Q In that meeting, or when you were at Folz's Hall that evening, that Wednesay evening, who were there?
A There were several gentlemen there, and almost all those indicted for conspiracy.
Q Was Mr. Grinnell there?
Q Was Mr. Furthman there?
Q Do you remember a gentleman by the name of SChoeninger?
Q Is that Mr. Schoeninger of the Northwester Toy Company?
A I think so; I don't know.
Q Was there a gentleman by the name of Strotz?
A Yes; Stotz.
Q Was there a gentleman by the name of Nettlehorst there, too?
A I cannot assert it.
Q Now were you not informed at that meeting that all of you were indicted for conspiracy, but Mr. Grinnell said that he had the capiases in his pocket, and would not have
them used against you, would not have you arrested as long as you would do as he pleases and make those statements that you had made before?
MR. GRINNELL: Now, it would be a great deal easier to call upon the prominent Germans who were there, and put them on the stand and prove what was said there.
THE COURT: The question is competent if the witness understood Mr. Grinnell.
Mr.ZEISLER: Now, did Mr. Grinnell speak and Mr. Furthman translate it there?
THE COURT: Did Mr. Grinnell speak and Mr. Furthman translate there, is now the question.
Mr. ZEISLER (To interpreter): Ask that question.
A So much as I know, Mr. Grinnell did not speak at all.
Q Did Mr. Furthman speak to you?
A Yes, he said a few words.
Q Were you informed by Mr. Fyrthman that you were indicted for conspiracy, and that the capiases against you were held back for the present?
Q Were you informed there th t you were indicted for conspiracy? I will divide my question.
A I cannot assert it; I do not believe it.
Q Did any of those gentlemen that I mentioned, Mr. Stotz, Mr. Schoeninger, or Mr. Nettlehorst, make a speech
A Yes; I think Mr. Schoeninger did.
Q Was Capt. Schaack present at that meeting?
Q And what othere police officers or detectives that you knew were there?
A Mr. Schuetler.
Q Who else?
A I think Mr. Lowenstein.
Q Who else?
A I don't know any more.
Q Now, tell us how many of the indicted conspirators were there, and who they are?
A I think I counted about fourteen or sixteen that were there.
Q What are their names?
A Breitenfeldt, Schrader, the two Hermanns, the two Lehmanns, Clermond, Huber, Huebner, Haageman, I don't know of anyone else.
Q Don't remember anyone besides yourself, of course?
A No; none occurring to me now.
Q Didn't those gentlemen tell you, or somebody there outside of you conspirators, that if you would repeat such statements as you had made before that time on this trial that then you would be provided for with good jobs and money, and so forth?
Q Do you mean to say that nothing of that sort was said by anybody there?
A It was said there that we should tell the truth, that that would do us nore good in a suit, or the proceedings against us than if we did not.
Mr. SALOMON: He said: "We were all indicted."
THE INTERPRETER: O, yes---that we were all indicted: that we should tell the truth; that we were all indicted for conspiracy, and that it would be of more benefit, of greater benefit to us in the proceedings against us if we would tell the truth than if we wold lie---tell the contrary.
Then we were asked who were in work---who had work and who had not. Then I think one of those gentlemen present gave work, provided work for one of those that had none, that were out of work.
Mr. ZEISLER: Is that all hat was said?
A It was said that we could get further without such means, without the shedding of blood, and that we could have carried through our movement, our agitation in favor of the eight hour law without bloodshed; that they themselves were in favor of the eight hour day.
Q Who said that?
A He said one of the gentlemen that spoke there---Schoeninger, or whatever his name maybe.
Q Now, what did Mr. Stotz say?
A He did not say anything at all.
Q And Mr. Nettlehorst?
A I do not know.
Q Now, what did Mr. Furthman say there?
A They all said the same thing.
Q How many policemen or detectives were there on that occasion, except Capt. Schaack and Lowenstein and Schuetler, ---besides, I mean, Capt Schaack and Lowenstein?
A I don't know of any more.
Q You mean to say that you do not know their names, or that there were not any more?
A No. I think that there were no more there besides them.
Q Are you acquainted with Mr. Spies?
A No, I am not acquainted; I know him.
Q You mean you know him by sight when you see him?
A Yes. I know him by sight. I am not acquainted with him.
Q Have you ever had a conversation with him?
Q Do you know Mr. Neebe?
Q I mean did you ever have a conversation with him?
A I spoke a few words with him at one time on Wells Street, when the basket makers had a meeting there. He was standing at the bar, I spoke a few words with him--- the willow ware makers.
Q Did you have a conversation with him at any other time?
Q How long ago was that that you had that conversation? with Mr. Neebe?
A I think it was before the 4th of May I cannot tell precisely; yes, it was previous.
Q Now, do you know Mr. Schwab, or have you any acquaintance with Mr. Schwab?
Q Do you know Mr. Parsons?
Q Are you acquainted with Mr. Fielden?
Q Have you ever had any conversaion with Mr. Lingg?
Q Mr. Waller, yuu said you had a conversation with Mr. Neebe once at a meeting of the basket makers?
Q Do you remember what that conversation was about?
A No, not any more.
Q Did he ask you whether you were a basket maker?
A I asked what this meeting was about, and I was told it was a meeting of the basket makers, and then I understood that Mr. Neebe was also a basket maket.
MR. GRINNELL: I don't know that that is competent.
THE COURT: The question is what conversation you had with Neebe?
A Yes; some one told him that Neebe was also a basket maker. I interpret it correctly.
MR ZEISLER: Of course that is not an answer to the question.
THE COURT: The question is, did you say anything to Neebe, or Neebe say anything to you, and if so what---is the question in fact.
MR. ZEISLER: Did you hear Mr. Lingg once make a speech, or more than that, did you see him?
A I saw him once speak
Q And heard him too, I suppose?
A Yes, at a meeting; it was at a meeting.
Q But never had a conversation with him?
Q You said, Mr. Waller, that you opened the meeting on
Monday night at Grief's Hall, in Grief's basement, did you?
A I did so when I was presiding. Somebody else had opened the meeting before.
Q No, did you stay there until the meting adjourned?
A Yes, I had to.
Q And you had occasion to see everybody who was in that meeting, had you not?
Q Was there a meeting of the conspirators and representatives of the prosecution and police and citizens at another hall called Folz's Hall, that you were present at?
A Not that I know of.
Q How was the hall lighted in the basement of Grief's place on the occasion when you held that conspiracy meeting?
A Kerosene lamps.
Q How many?
A I do not know.
Q About how many-?--more than half a dozen?
A No, not more than half a dozen.
Q Do you remember where those lamps were placed?
RE DIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Grinnell.
Q Mr. Waller, do you know Salomon or Zeisler?
Q When did you see them first?
A When I once was
at law; had a suit at Bruscke's, in connection with Brusck's strike---and I saw them.
Q Did you see them after the 4th of May, either of them?
Q Wheen and where?
A In their office.
Q And before you were at Capt. Schaack's office?
Q Did they ask you anything about the Haymarket massacre?
Objected to as not in rebuttal, and as utterly incompetent and immaterial.
Q Do you remember the time that Salomon and Zeisler, about the time that you were at Capt. Schaack's office the first time, made a petition before one of the judges, for your release on writ of habeas corpus?
A I remember that it was to be done, but I don't know if it was done or not.
Q Did you ask them or send word to them, either of them, to do it for you?
Q When, how soon after you went to Captain Schaack's office the first time, was it, that you heard that it had been done?
MR. BLACK: I would like my brother Grinnell to tell me what that has to do with this case or this issue?
MR. GRINNELL: I want to show by this witness---which is a legitimate rebuttal to the cross examination---that these gentlemen without any solicitation on the part of Waller, for their own anxiety in this case, without any solicitation whatever, sought to protect this man for the benefit of the defendants.
Mr. ZEISLER: Because were asked by his friends to interfere.
THE COURT: Well, is there any objection to the question?
MR. BLACK: I have no objection.
Mr. GRINNELL: Well, when you were at that little hall at the corner of Wells Street and Chicago Avenue on that Wednesday, sometime about the 9th of June, --was the date you put to it?
Mr. ZEISLER: I believe so.
Mr. GRINNELL: At that meeting did Adolph Schoeninger preside and explain to you people there in German while you were there,, explain what he had to say to you?
A I don't know whether he was the chairman of the meeting or not.
Q Was he the first speaker?
A Yes, he was the first speaker.
Q Did he not say to you people there then in German that the act of the 4th of May had been a disgrace to the
Q And it was now time in this free country for the laboring man, if he had any rights, to get them by agitation, legitimate agitation and proper legislation?
Q And not by bloodshed and riot?
Q And did he not say to you then, there, that if you told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that the police of the town would see that yourperson was safe, and that you would be fairly dealt by with the State?
Q You knew Hermann, too, there?
Q Did he not rise in the meeting and wish to ask me a question as to why the news papers had published the fact of his indictment when he understood the news papers were to obtain no information against him?
Objected to; objection overruled and exception by defendants.
A Yes, he said so.
Q Did not Hermann also there when asked by Adolph Schoeninger---when asked by the first speaker; if there were any of them that had work, he said that he had not, and did not Schoeninger say that if he had lost his employment because of the publication of the indictment against him, that he could come to his, Schoeninger's place, and he
would give him employment, where he had been years before?
A The question was asked by Mr. Grinnell, who was out of work.
Q Was that Mr. Schoeninger's answer?
A He said then that Hermann should come to him, and he would see that he would have work for him.
Q You know Breitenfeldt?
Q He was there also?
Q He found fault, too, because the newspapers had published the fact of his indictment?
Q Didn't he say then that he understood that the indictment, against him should not appear in the news papers Did he not then say that he understood that the advertisement of the indictment was not to appear in the newspapers?
A That I do not know; he spoke English.
Q Waller, have you been solicited by any of the conspirators within the last ten days to go back upon the story that you originally told, and to meet with them at a place in the City of Chicago near or at Lincoln Park, and there agree upon a story that should be told here, which should be different than you first told?
Objected to as improper, as immaterial, and not rebuttal.
Q Has any defendant, any of the men on trial here, ever asked you to appear at Lincoln Park or elsewhere in the city of Chicago, and confer, talk together, as to what should be your testimony in this case---has any of the defendants--- so as not to have the answer wrong?
Q Which one of the defendants, if any?
Objected to, and motion to strike out the answer; which objection and motion was sustained and allowed
Q Waller, when did you first tell the story to Capt. Schaack?
A At once when I was arrested, but not all at a time.
Q Did you at any time, within a week or ten day, of the first time that you came down to Schaack's office, repeat your story in the presence of Engel?
RE CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. Zeisler.
(Counsel for defendants wit draw their objection to any conversations had with either Mr. Salomon or Mr. Zeisler at their office by this witness.)
Q MR. Waller, were you a member of the Furniture Worker's Union about the time of your arrest?
Q Do you know that the firm of Salomon and Zeisler
are the lawyers of the Furniture Worker's Union, No. One?
Q Do you know that it is a rule of that Union to furnish members of that Union with counsel in case they need it?--I mean legal.
THE COURT: You are now getting into a subject which was stopped on your objection, although you since withdrew your objection.
Mr. ZEISLER: No sir, not that, if your Honor please. The fact as to the habeas corpus petition that we had in preparation was not objected to.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Mr. GRINNELL: Then let Salomon & Zeisler testify. What is the use of proving the rule. The rule don't cut any figure. If they say that that is what they did, at the instance of some of the union, that is an end of it, and let us have it in the record.
Mr. Salomon: - Of his wif. His wife applied to us.
Mr. ZEISLER: Do you know that that is the rule?
Q Do you know, Mr. Waller, whether or not your wife was at our office about the time, at the office of Salomon and Zeisler about the time of your arrest?
A Before the arrest.
Q Do you know that at the time she was at the office
of Salomon & Zeisler she supposed you had been arrested?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q Do you know that she was at our office that day? whether before or after your arrest?
THE COURT: He has already answered that.
MR. ZEISLER: He said "Not after I had been arrested."
THE COURT: Well, he thought it was before.
Mr. ZEISLER: That is the inference, but we want to bring it out.
Mr. FOSTER: If the court please, the confusion is here. This witness does not admit that when the two detectives took him and carried him down to the station and had communication with Captain Schaack that he was arrested.
THE COURT: Q While you were in the Chicago Avenue Station did your wife go to Salomon & Zeisler, is what they want to get at?
Mr. ZEISLER: You say you don't know it?
I know she was there, but not during the time I was at the Station, but before that.
Q Now, I will ask you, Mr. Waller, whether you did not disappear on the morning of the day when you were brought to the Chicago Avenue Station, and did not show up at your house?
A I was away and came back home the same day.
Q When, the same day did you come?
A In the evening
at eight o'clock.
Recess until two P. M.